Can civilians purchase "LE" ammo?

[lifted_silverado]

I had a problem with the hornaday critical defense rounds not wanting to load properly, they were steady jamming between my slide rail.

[n8ball2013]

I had a problem with the hornaday critical defense rounds not wanting to load properly, they were steady jamming between my slide rail.

what gun? Some of the 1911s are known to not like the hollow point ammos.

[focalrock4life]

I recommend buying what the police use in their firearms. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for you and me.

I can't imagine any but the most retarded gun banning states not allowing personal defense ammunition (which is pretty much what LE ammo is).

I disagree with the first part of this. Police departments have more to take into consideration when choosing their ammo than most think. They are more likely to have to use their firearms and use them in a more difficult situation than your every day Joe. With that in mind, just because it's good enough for them and fits their budget doesn't mean it's good enough for everyone else. In my area the cops use Speer Gold-dots. Not a bad round but not good enough for me. In all my 9mm's I carry Winchester Ranger SXT's (aka Black Talon's) either in 127gr +P+ or 147gr depending on which gun it's in. In my .45's I prefer Hornady XTP TAP FPD. I chose those particular rounds after doing my own tests with them along with researching them on the web.

SIGH..

This is probably some of the most shallow minded stuff I've read in this section. ok where to even begin...

first off, what born again said, is correct. Using what the LEO's use is a great option. There is alot of testing that goes into ammunition that an agency chooses. In the first part of your reply you even state they "are more likely to have to use their firearms and use them in a more difficult situation than your every day Joe". So if its a more difficult situation how is that not good enough for a civillian? over penetration is just as bad for an officer as a civillian so that arguement holds no water lol

Second, The GD round is one of the most widely used in the nation in law enforcement applications. The bonded bullet makes it far superior in holding together and retaining its weight when fired through hard objects and clothing than any normal jacketed HP (if you think you're going to get a straight on unobstructed shot to a mans torso in the majority of situations, you've got another thing coming.)

Third, What makes the bullet not "good enough" for you? I can tell you with first hand experience on numerous occasions how well this round works on humans.

fourth, you can't argue the fact that cost matters when departments factor in cost when picking rounds as all premium defense rounds are identical in pricing all things considered give or take a few pennies. which is worth more to the agency than opening themselves up to liability for using subpar ammunition.

Lastly, SXT's are NOT in anyway shape or form the same as the real black talons, which are not manufactured and have not been for a while. what is your reasoning for using a +p+ round when a standard pressure 147gr or just +p 124 will suffice, you're only gaining 50-100fps out of a short barrel and causing much more wear and tear on your firearm, and slower follow-up.

I'm not saying to go buy speer GD and nothing else ever, im just saying don't be so close minded when it comes to these things. Also, if you dont mind me asking, what does your "testing" consist of, any proof that the GD didn't pass your tests?

ok im done, that was probably longer than it was worth but oh well..didn't want the OP to miss out on more options

[flashlight_65]

I had a problem with the hornaday critical defense rounds not wanting to load properly, they were steady jamming between my slide rail.

what gun? Some of the 1911s are known to not like the hollow point ammos.

Polishing of the feed ramp or swapping the magazine spring/new mags may help feeding

Edited August 2, 2012 by flashlight_65

[CLNSHVNnDRAGGN]

I recommend buying what the police use in their firearms. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for you and me.

I can't imagine any but the most retarded gun banning states not allowing personal defense ammunition (which is pretty much what LE ammo is).

I disagree with the first part of this. Police departments have more to take into consideration when choosing their ammo than most think. They are more likely to have to use their firearms and use them in a more difficult situation than your every day Joe. With that in mind, just because it's good enough for them and fits their budget doesn't mean it's good enough for everyone else. In my area the cops use Speer Gold-dots. Not a bad round but not good enough for me. In all my 9mm's I carry Winchester Ranger SXT's (aka Black Talon's) either in 127gr +P+ or 147gr depending on which gun it's in. In my .45's I prefer Hornady XTP TAP FPD. I chose those particular rounds after doing my own tests with them along with researching them on the web.

SIGH..

This is probably some of the most shallow minded stuff I've read in this section. ok where to even begin...

first off, what born again said, is correct. Using what the LEO's use is a great option. There is alot of testing that goes into ammunition that an agency chooses. In the first part of your reply you even state they "are more likely to have to use their firearms and use them in a more difficult situation than your every day Joe". So if its a more difficult situation how is that not good enough for a civillian? over penetration is just as bad for an officer as a civillian so that arguement holds no water lol

Second, The GD round is one of the most widely used in the nation in law enforcement applications. The bonded bullet makes it far superior in holding together and retaining its weight when fired through hard objects and clothing than any normal jacketed HP (if you think you're going to get a straight on unobstructed shot to a mans torso in the majority of situations, you've got another thing coming.)

Third, What makes the bullet not "good enough" for you? I can tell you with first hand experience on numerous occasions how well this round works on humans.

fourth, you can't argue the fact that cost matters when departments factor in cost when picking rounds as all premium defense rounds are identical in pricing all things considered give or take a few pennies. which is worth more to the agency than opening themselves up to liability for using subpar ammunition.

Lastly, SXT's are NOT in anyway shape or form the same as the real black talons, which are not manufactured and have not been for a while. what is your reasoning for using a +p+ round when a standard pressure 147gr or just +p 124 will suffice, you're only gaining 50-100fps out of a short barrel and causing much more wear and tear on your firearm, and slower follow-up.

I'm not saying to go buy speer GD and nothing else ever, im just saying don't be so close minded when it comes to these things. Also, if you dont mind me asking, what does your "testing" consist of, any proof that the GD didn't pass your tests?

ok im done, that was probably longer than it was worth but oh well..didn't want the OP to miss out on more options

I guess I’ll just respond to this by going right down the line. I never said using what LEO’s use is a bad option. I agree with you that it is a good option especially if you ever have to use it and end up in court. Where I don’t agree is with Born_Again saying that “if it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for YOU and me.” That’s his opinion however I disagree with it. There is not a single ammo out there that will function flawlessly in EVERY gun nor be perfect for every situation.

What I was referring to with the situations cops is there is in a sense more liability factors they have to look at because if something goes wrong it’s not just on one individual, it’s on the entire department at the least.

Asking what makes a bullet not good enough for me would be like me asking why isn’t a Boss Audio or some other no name swap meet sub not good enough for you. Everyone has their preferences.

If you’re dealing with a small department sure that few extra pennies might not matter but when you’re talking a large metro department that goes through a lot more ammo in training, practicing, etc it does make a difference and does get factored in.

As for the SXT’s “NOT in anyway shape or form the same as the real black talons” where do you get your info? I have real Black Talon’s also and have shot them side by side with the Rangers and they are essentially the same thing (SXT actually stands for Same eXact Thing). Rangers have a nickel plated brass case where as BT’s had a brass or black casing depending on when they were manufactured and Rangers don’t have the “Lubalox” lubricant painted on them giving them the black color which Winchester reports was a bad idea anyway as it inhibited the performance of the BT’s

As for my choice of pressure and weight it has to do with what my guns function best with. I run the 127gr +p+ in my Glock 26 because the extra fps helps out of the shorter barrel. I’m not concerned about wear because I’m not running a stock barrel in that gun anyway so it’s not an issue and my follow up speed is more than adequate.

I really don’t get how you can say I’m the one being close minded because I disagreed with a close minded statement saying because it’s good enough for them it’s good enough for everyone.

My testing consisted of firing different rounds from different guns using ballistic jelly as well as just normal target shooting testing reliability in MY firearms. I tracked my results and compared them to other results I found on the internet (mainly using ones with video and/or picture evidence) and made my decision from that. This is something I did over a 2 year period so it’s not like I just went out one day, did some shooting, compared what I came up with with some guy on the internet and made a decision. I take protecting my family, friends, and my own life very seriously so I feel it’s worth putting the time and effort into figuring out what works best for ME and at the same time enjoy doing it.

[focalrock4life]

I recommend buying what the police use in their firearms. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for you and me.

I can't imagine any but the most retarded gun banning states not allowing personal defense ammunition (which is pretty much what LE ammo is).

I disagree with the first part of this. Police departments have more to take into consideration when choosing their ammo than most think. They are more likely to have to use their firearms and use them in a more difficult situation than your every day Joe. With that in mind, just because it's good enough for them and fits their budget doesn't mean it's good enough for everyone else. In my area the cops use Speer Gold-dots. Not a bad round but not good enough for me. In all my 9mm's I carry Winchester Ranger SXT's (aka Black Talon's) either in 127gr +P+ or 147gr depending on which gun it's in. In my .45's I prefer Hornady XTP TAP FPD. I chose those particular rounds after doing my own tests with them along with researching them on the web.

SIGH..

This is probably some of the most shallow minded stuff I've read in this section. ok where to even begin...

first off, what born again said, is correct. Using what the LEO's use is a great option. There is alot of testing that goes into ammunition that an agency chooses. In the first part of your reply you even state they "are more likely to have to use their firearms and use them in a more difficult situation than your every day Joe". So if its a more difficult situation how is that not good enough for a civillian? over penetration is just as bad for an officer as a civillian so that arguement holds no water lol

Second, The GD round is one of the most widely used in the nation in law enforcement applications. The bonded bullet makes it far superior in holding together and retaining its weight when fired through hard objects and clothing than any normal jacketed HP (if you think you're going to get a straight on unobstructed shot to a mans torso in the majority of situations, you've got another thing coming.)

Third, What makes the bullet not "good enough" for you? I can tell you with first hand experience on numerous occasions how well this round works on humans.

fourth, you can't argue the fact that cost matters when departments factor in cost when picking rounds as all premium defense rounds are identical in pricing all things considered give or take a few pennies. which is worth more to the agency than opening themselves up to liability for using subpar ammunition.

Lastly, SXT's are NOT in anyway shape or form the same as the real black talons, which are not manufactured and have not been for a while. what is your reasoning for using a +p+ round when a standard pressure 147gr or just +p 124 will suffice, you're only gaining 50-100fps out of a short barrel and causing much more wear and tear on your firearm, and slower follow-up.

I'm not saying to go buy speer GD and nothing else ever, im just saying don't be so close minded when it comes to these things. Also, if you dont mind me asking, what does your "testing" consist of, any proof that the GD didn't pass your tests?

ok im done, that was probably longer than it was worth but oh well..didn't want the OP to miss out on more options

I guess I’ll just respond to this by going right down the line. I never said using what LEO’s use is a bad option. I agree with you that it is a good option especially if you ever have to use it and end up in court. Where I don’t agree is with Born_Again saying that “if it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for YOU and me.” That’s his opinion however I disagree with it. There is not a single ammo out there that will function flawlessly in EVERY gun nor be perfect for every situation.

What I was referring to with the situations cops is there is in a sense more liability factors they have to look at because if something goes wrong it’s not just on one individual, it’s on the entire department at the least.

Asking what makes a bullet not good enough for me would be like me asking why isn’t a Boss Audio or some other no name swap meet sub not good enough for you. Everyone has their preferences.

If you’re dealing with a small department sure that few extra pennies might not matter but when you’re talking a large metro department that goes through a lot more ammo in training, practicing, etc it does make a difference and does get factored in.

As for the SXT’s “NOT in anyway shape or form the same as the real black talons” where do you get your info? I have real Black Talon’s also and have shot them side by side with the Rangers and they are essentially the same thing (SXT actually stands for Same eXact Thing). Rangers have a nickel plated brass case where as BT’s had a brass or black casing depending on when they were manufactured and Rangers don’t have the “Lubalox” lubricant painted on them giving them the black color which Winchester reports was a bad idea anyway as it inhibited the performance of the BT’s

As for my choice of pressure and weight it has to do with what my guns function best with. I run the 127gr +p+ in my Glock 26 because the extra fps helps out of the shorter barrel. I’m not concerned about wear because I’m not running a stock barrel in that gun anyway so it’s not an issue and my follow up speed is more than adequate.

I really don’t get how you can say I’m the one being close minded because I disagreed with a close minded statement saying because it’s good enough for them it’s good enough for everyone.

My testing consisted of firing different rounds from different guns using ballistic jelly as well as just normal target shooting testing reliability in MY firearms. I tracked my results and compared them to other results I found on the internet (mainly using ones with video and/or picture evidence) and made my decision from that. This is something I did over a 2 year period so it’s not like I just went out one day, did some shooting, compared what I came up with with some guy on the internet and made a decision. I take protecting my family, friends, and my own life very seriously so I feel it’s worth putting the time and effort into figuring out what works best for ME and at the same time enjoy doing it.

See had you added some of the above in your original post I would have let it be. Also, as long as you know the difference between the old "Black talons" and SXT's thats fine. You're original statement made it seem like you were using them interchangeably when really they are not the exact same thing due to the coating, cases and from what I've seen the projectile from the black talons more closely resembels the T-series, are you referring to the Ranger T-series (RA9T)?

Either way, those are your opinions, I just wanted to throw more into the mix for the OP.

Ultimately Any of the ones listed will suffice for use. What's better is subjective

[CLNSHVNnDRAGGN]

I was trying to keep my original post somewhat shorter which is why I didn't go into details. Had the op asked for details or a post like yours come along then I'm more than happy to explain more. I do want to add though that the Ranger SXT's only come in the T-series which is why I didn't mention T-series in my previous posts. As for using them interchangeably, you pretty much can. The coatings are where the differences are those are merely cosmetic. Original BT's use a brass case with a black coating, Ranger SXT's use a brass case with a nickle coating. Take the black coating off the slug of an original BT and you will have the slug of a Ranger SXT.

[focalrock4life]

well there were two generations. The first rangers were SXT's now the newest gen Are the T series (specifically says T-Series on the box, not SXT) and have the longer "petals" if you will and thicker jacket. There also is a "civilian" SXT HP round.

Edited August 2, 2012 by focalrock4life

[Born_Again]

I recommend buying what the police use in their firearms. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for you and me.

I can't imagine any but the most retarded gun banning states not allowing personal defense ammunition (which is pretty much what LE ammo is).

I disagree with the first part of this. Police departments have more to take into consideration when choosing their ammo than most think. They are more likely to have to use their firearms and use them in a more difficult situation than your every day Joe. With that in mind, just because it's good enough for them and fits their budget doesn't mean it's good enough for everyone else. In my area the cops use Speer Gold-dots. Not a bad round but not good enough for me. In all my 9mm's I carry Winchester Ranger SXT's (aka Black Talon's) either in 127gr +P+ or 147gr depending on which gun it's in. In my .45's I prefer Hornady XTP TAP FPD. I chose those particular rounds after doing my own tests with them along with researching them on the web.

We'll have to agree to disagree:)

Edited August 3, 2012 by Born_Again

[Mosin]

Yes you will pay a little bit more for the Corbon but its WELL worth it

The hydrashocks are great rounds and they do really well and are reliable

From the guys i have talked to that run the HST they just have more expansion and create a larger wound cavity which in the name of self defense you want a round that does the most damage because its more likely to stop the threat...

The Hornady TAP is a VERY reliable round as well and in my personal experience it has performed very well and all the tests i watched for ballistics showed it performs well also

That's exactly what I am looking for is something that expands more, which is why I want this HST and/or the Hornady stuff. After reading and hearing that the Hydra-Shok doesn't expand like this newer stuff,I want something "better" to say the least.

@ Born_Again: I would prefer what local LE uses but I don't wanna get 21 questions for asking them what brand ammo they carry is. lol