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Fact and Science have NO place in Car Audio!


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Based on what I often read, it would be easy to draw such a conclusion. The truth is out there . . .

Myth - Caps don't work.

Busted - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsg8Ys9f6BA (my furry twin btw)

Myth - It's better to run the ground all the way back to the battery.

Busted - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bpdh2BD-qI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUWziVPAYFW-hsLxvs8GlT3Q

Myth - You can "clamp" amps to see how much power they really make.

Busted - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwxlnSDv9wY

Myth - The battery negative is ground.

Busted - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8FftSBziUQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUWziVPAYFW-hsLxvs8GlT3Q

Why is it so hard to get these messages across? I'd love to know.

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Tony Candela - SMD Sales & Marketing
Email me at [email protected] to learn about becoming an SMD Partner!

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And that's what I'm talking about. If I search "clamping" at SMD, how many new threads will I find. Guys, don't be afraid to say - "Bro, that does not work. Here's a video that will help you understand why." Same can be said for any of the other myths I point out.

As for the deli . . . my father started it in 1980 and that was our family business until the mid 90s when he sold it. Of course the original deli had seating for 14 . . .

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Tony Candela - SMD Sales & Marketing
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Interesting findings on 1 farad vs 100 exact opposite of what I would expect.

2010 Mazda 3s 2.5L

Pioneer DEH-X9600BHS

Knu OFC 1/0 

SS Platinum AGM / XS Power XP750

Alpine PDX F-4 / Morel Maximo 5 + Coax 5

IA 10.1 / SSA XCON 12 

 

 

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I don't agree on a few.

~The whole cap thing, buy a decent battery yield better results, but you guys have not tested that scenario, and which is what majority of people will recommend.

Even on that video description

1F capacitor didn't add any power on the continuous RMS test, but it OWNED the Dynamic Burst testing!!

So great the 1 fared capacitor is gained you few hundred watts on a burp style test.

Now the question is what would a battery gained you in the same price point like a XS Power D680?

~As for the running of ground wires front to back. Sure it may not have much effect on a smaller setup, but now lets talk people that are using multiple 5000-7000+watt rms amps?

How about how dbdrag street cars that are doing 157+ db with the car off and a single group 31 battery under the hood, and 10-20 runs of positive and negative wire each if not more, and you when you meter the car over and over after adding a new run of pos and neg wire it keeps getting louder and louder. Must mean the amp is making more power due to the added positive and negative runs.

Again, tests where done with smaller sized amps, and again tony said if you have a system of 2500watts or less the chassis is just fine. But going and saying it is fine for everything and saying myth busted is not true because your db drag street cars prove your testing wrong.

~Now for amp clamping...

Sure I know the whole ordeal behind this, and that's to prove a old technology useless and sell the new technology. Thats marketing.

But to say it doesn't work when it does??? Mind blown!

Tested with a oscilloscope or tuned with a dd-1, using a true rms clamp and multimeter you guys showed 258va (not watts, as the video put it).

Then you tested it with the AD-1 and showed 254 watts.

Fluke 155 true rms multimeter $170 (ebay price for a new unit)

Fluke 274 true rms clamp $240 (ebay price for a new unit)

SMD DD-1 $150 (wccaraudio.com price for a new unit)

Total $560

So a $2800 tool came up with 4 less watts as a true rms clamp/multimeter, oscope/dd-1 setup.

Is that 4 watts worth $2240?

Not to mention that the clamp meter and multimeter will come in use over and over for the average person that likes to tinker with other things besides car audio. Let alone its easier to come by and or save for the average person where maybe one week they can buy a clamp, their next paycheck a dd-1, and so on.

Which also brings me to how can a user find its impedance rise for whatever reason they may want to know if you cant clamp an amp?

Dont get me wrong, Id love an AD-1, but for the average end user its not a reality. Now for an actual audio shop I feel the AD-1 would be a MUST HAVE, which is what it was made for, not the typical end user..

But again, to come out and say "YOU CANT CLAMP AN AMP because the numbers are not watts even though the numbers only differ by 4 (not watts) is wrong.

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I guess my point is, just scaling everything up, and saying that the myths are still busted when they are not because you have not tested those is wrong to do when there are other tests that prove other wise.

I have a hard time believing a 1fared capacitor will out due a quality agm battery in the same price point, and when it does, why should people buy capacitors when the battery is more beneficial. Even Kinetik claims that their hc800 is a "cap killller" and stronger then 200 1fared capacitors and that also sells for $130, but Id rather see the XS Power tested vs a 1fared capacitor, or hell maybe both the kinetik hc800 ($130), the xs power d680($125) up against your 1 fared capacitor, and see which stacks up and which is going to yield you better performance. Chances are the batteries will win, and this is why people say capacitors dont work because a same price quality battery puts those capacitors to same.

The whole power wire ordeal is one of them, and when you sit there and watch the Termlab score increase after each positive and negative wire and is added front to back just proves that. The Termlab dont lie.

I guess Id like to see more tests, or shall we say testing of larger sized amps.

I have 2 Sundown saz-4500d amps not in use currently, and would be willing to ship those amps in for a larger scale test. Just send me shipping labels. I know you guys probably dont have larger amps just laying around and is why Im offering them.
The amps been burped of a single battery with 40 runs of power wire (20runs pos 20runs neg),dropping to 8.X volts and wired 0.18 ohms in my buddies CRX for db drag regionals and put up great numbers over 156db from a pair of 10inch dd9500s, and I ran them daily as well wired at .35 ohms. They take abuse well


People are not doing things like this to waste money on wire when they can just use a chassis ground and be better off.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/JohnnyKo12/DSC00634.jpg

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I don't agree on a few.

~The whole cap thing, buy a decent battery yield better results, but you guys have not tested that scenario, and which is what majority of people will recommend.

Even on that video description

1F capacitor didn't add any power on the continuous RMS test, but it OWNED the Dynamic Burst testing!!

So great the 1 fared capacitor is gained you few hundred watts on a burp style test.

Now the question is what would a battery gained you in the same price point like a XS Power D680?

~As for the running of ground wires front to back. Sure it may not have much effect on a smaller setup, but now lets talk people that are using multiple 5000-7000+watt rms amps?

How about how dbdrag street cars that are doing 157+ db with the car off and a single group 31 battery under the hood, and 10-20 runs of positive and negative wire each if not more, and you when you meter the car over and over after adding a new run of pos and neg wire it keeps getting louder and louder. Must mean the amp is making more power due to the added positive and negative runs.

Again, tests where done with smaller sized amps, and again tony said if you have a system of 2500watts or less the chassis is just fine. But going and saying it is fine for everything and saying myth busted is not true because your db drag street cars prove your testing wrong.

~Now for amp clamping...

Sure I know the whole ordeal behind this, and that's to prove a old technology useless and sell the new technology. Thats marketing.

But to say it doesn't work when it does??? Mind blown!

Tested with a oscilloscope or tuned with a dd-1, using a true rms clamp and multimeter you guys showed 258va (not watts, as the video put it).

Then you tested it with the AD-1 and showed 254 watts.

Fluke 155 true rms multimeter $170 (ebay price for a new unit)

Fluke 274 true rms clamp $240 (ebay price for a new unit)

SMD DD-1 $150 (wccaraudio.com price for a new unit)

Total $560

So a $2800 tool came up with 4 less watts as a true rms clamp/multimeter, oscope/dd-1 setup.

Is that 4 watts worth $2240?

Not to mention that the clamp meter and multimeter will come in use over and over for the average person that likes to tinker with other things besides car audio. Let alone its easier to come by and or save for the average person where maybe one week they can buy a clamp, their next paycheck a dd-1, and so on.

Which also brings me to how can a user find its impedance rise for whatever reason they may want to know if you cant clamp an amp?

Dont get me wrong, Id love an AD-1, but for the average end user its not a reality. Now for an actual audio shop I feel the AD-1 would be a MUST HAVE, which is what it was made for, not the typical end user..

But again, to come out and say "YOU CANT CLAMP AN AMP because the numbers are not watts even though the numbers only differ by 4 (not watts) is wrong.

AF - I like your style. The title of this thread was supposed to ruffle a few feathers. Now, let me address your points one at a time.

Capacitors . . . music is dynamic in nature. No song that I know of requires 100% duty cycle of an amplifier, even those with bass in the title. Now, let's just say for a second that we listen to Blurred Lines and we want to play that song as loud as our system can possibly play it. Even though this song, like many recorded in the last 15 years, is heavily compressed (dynamic range minimized), and it will require more power on average than a song like say, Gold Dust Woman by Fleetwood Mac, it's far from a pure sine wave. The immediate power requirements of different transients of the song are short - think milliseconds.

Everyone seems to be so anxious to compare batteries to capacitors. When in reality, they're two entirely different animals and they each have their place. Take out a pen and paper, draw a straight line and write 14.4 Volts (operating voltage of a spinning alternator) next to that in the margin. Now, skip two lines down and draw another straight line and write 12.6 Volts (nominal voltage of a fully charged 12 Volt battery) next to that in the margin. Now, you obviously have a space between these two lines. A charged capacitor occupies that space (or does it?). Without it, as one pulls current from the alternator, that 14.4 Volt line you just drew will droop everytime that occurs. Since an alternator doesn't store any energy, it has no ability to maintain it's output voltage as current is pulled rapidly from it (recall in the Charging System 101 video when I first turn on the light and voltage dropped - know you know why). A fully charged, and properly sized, capacitor will minimize these droops as current is pulled from the alternator dynamically, as it would be when playing music.

OK, so what about the battery. Good question. With the engine running, a battery has greater than 12.6 Volts of potential. The difference between what it actually has and 12.6 Volts is called a surface charge. A simple way to determine that is to connect your DMM to your battery(ies) with the vehicle running and then turn it off. What does your DMM say? Let's say, you read 13.4 Volts. Then, the battery has 1.2 Volts of surface charge on it. This surface charge, no different than the charge of a capacitor, can be put to work. So, go and actually measure that . . . now that you've done so, come back and draw a new line on your sheet of paper with that number. Then, the real answer of how a capacitor can, will, and does work is that its storage occupies the space between that line (surface charge) and the output voltage of the alternator. Incidentally, the battery in the Jeep Grand Cherokee was a massive (Group 31 or so) AGM style battery.

AK - test it for yourself. No tricks. No seven of diamonds . . . I promise. Build a scale model if you need to. Batteries absolutely have their place. Not everyone can afford that big alternator and the surface charge can be a powerful thing. In addition, batteries offer parking lot play time - caps can't do that under any circumstance. Building a charging system with both batteries and capacitors is the way to go and is what I've done for 25 years now. If we only had XS Power batteries back then . . .

Clamping . . . Brother, you're just wrong. Passionate but still wrong. I suggest that you watch that video again. One cannot determine amplifier power via clamping. Can't be done. No eloquent explanations will do. It just can't work. To imply that it can would be the equivalent of me looking at a gallon of milk and reading 128oz. Then, deriving that that gallon of milk weighed 8 pounds because there are 16oz in a pound (128oz / 16oz = 8). Hey, it's close . . . but it's wrong because fluid oz and oz are not the same metric. As D'Amore explains, the reason this isn't possible is because in an AC signal, voltage and current are not always in phase. Plain and simple - can't be changed. D'Amore did an excellent job of debunkng that one. Time to get you on board my friend. Sure, those Fluke products you point out are MUSTS in any serious enthusiasts tool box, but a yardstick would be just as good as they to determine amplifier power - useless.

Grounding via the chassis versus cable . . . I had a long chat with D'Amore on this topic today. We are in agreement that we can indeed prove this further. In the meantime, because we're both crazy busy, I'd like you to think about something from that picture you attached. What has more mass - the body of that vehicle or all that cable? What has more surface area - the body of that vehicle or all that cable? Give us time on this one . . . we'll show you guys how to determine which is a better choice, no matter how much current you're talking about. Tony and I both believe that there indeed is some point at which cable will be a better choice, but I bet that answer blows a few minds.

In the meantime, keep the passion. I admire it my brother.

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Tony Candela - SMD Sales & Marketing
Email me at [email protected] to learn about becoming an SMD Partner!

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Oh, and as for the price of the AD-1 . . . you can't do an apples to apples comparison to an oscilloscope plus meters. All are excellent tools. All have their place. One does not replace the other. Each has it's forte. Only you can decide if whether that tool is worth it to YOU or not. But, let me assure you it has its place. It is simply not possible to obtain the kind of data that it's capable of without purchasing a product like the Audiograph PowerCube ($40,000) or an Audio Precision ($30,000). Comparing it to tools that have a similar purpose, it's a bargain.

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Tony Candela - SMD Sales & Marketing
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So what if I ground to the Chassis and run wire to both battery would that help even more?

XS Power D5100, 2 D2700s, & 2 D975s

MechMan 220a Alt

DC 5K

Kicker 650.4

2 12 Ascendant Audio Mayhem's

Pioneer DEH-P7200HD

Rockford Fosgate 3sity.1

Build log: http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/166792-88-nissan-maxima-trunk-build/#entry2430899

http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/191439-lexus-is300-fi-crescendo-shca-rf-pics/

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these are some good points guys. so snafu the cap will uptain that surface voltage loss in between the battery and alt?

REFF'S
My link
EBAY
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I love car audio so much because I will never be done. I can never win, and I will never get it finished or perfect. It always has me coming back for more, I can never get my fill of it, but I get what I need.

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