Where is high powered car audio headed with Hybrid and all electric vehicles ???

[Fish Chris]

I will likely be getting a second hybrid vehicle in the next few months, and of course, it will have to have a little bit of decent sound in it..... at least as good as my Prius. 

Problem is, these hybrid vehicles typically have a max amperage draw, of less than 100 amps. Toyota says my Prius is only 30 amps ! But I'm running a 5 ch amp that is fused for 90 amps, so I'm probably pulling as much as 40 or 50 amps during hard play, and no problems yet.

 

My new vehicle has a 60 amp (recommended) so it might actually be good for 100 amps ? Which is fine for now....

 

But what if I ever wanted to have a BIG, powerful setup ??? And what happens when ALL new vehicles are either Hybrid, or all electric ?

I know these big ass high voltage batteries hold PLENTY of juice for a very strong stereo system, but its all about the inverter they use.... which is typically, not very strong, as the vast majority of folks just don't need that much juice  Are any companies working on high powered aftermarket power inverters for Hybrids or all electric vehicles ?

 

Where is this going to go ?

[Dafaseles]

Unfortunately, in the shiter. Car companies and government officials only care about the bottom line. Not if 2% of the people buying this car can put an aftermarket stereo in

[Arthur79]

FWIW, the Tesla Model 3 (all electric) 12v DC inverter is rated at 250 amps.  Still not the same range as a lot of SPL enthusiast builds like you see here, but it's definitely enough for SQ builds and for people that want some solid tunes for daily driving.  I have successfully pulled 150 amps peaks / 60-90 amps loud listening from a Model 3.

 

I have to agree with you and Dafaseles on the lower amperage inverters on the hybrid options.

 

Best bet on the hybrids with limited 12v supply is to focus on efficient speakers (play louder on less power) and clean/efficient class D amplifiers.  I'm a big fan of the D'Amore Engineering E series amplifiers:

 

https://damore-engineering.myshopify.com/collections/audio-amplifiers

 

The next piece that I think is critical for a limited power system is over-the-top sound damping/deadening.  Invest in quality deadener and don't be sparing with it.  If you can find sheet metal in the car, deaden it.  That will help focus as much of the sound energy inside the cabin of the car and prevent loss of acoustic energy through flex/vibration.

 

I'm working towards testing super caps and additional batteries as a way to manage aggressive peaks in current draw on the Model 3 cars.  I think that could get those cars into the lower brackets of the bass enthusiast/SPL crowd (but again doesn't compete with the true bass-head class where they are packing in 2+ high output alternators and lithium batteries).

 

Dafaseles has some decent experience with converting ICE cars to Lithium chemistry batteries that are capable of much higher current draw.  I know on the Tesla cars, converting from  AGM to Lithium requires a firmware update as the charging profile is different.  As Dafaseles will undoubtedly point out as well - you cannot mix different battery chemistries (and for that matter voltages) as it will cause problems.

 

As for the future, I am hopeful but again to Dafaseles's point, it will fall on third parties to bring high power audio to the market.  One of the things I have on my list is figuring out a regulated high voltage DC power supply based audio amplifier.  The DC->DC converters in these hybrid/all eclectic cars are inefficient compared to drawing directly from the high voltage side.  And to your point there is a crap-ton of power stored in the traction batteries, it's just a matter of figuring out how to safely and efficiently tap that power.

 

The biggest challenge I see there is managing to regulate a pretty wide range of voltage from car to car.  The traction battery pack voltage in the Model 3 cars is different from other EV's  So managing a 100ish volt swing on the input side and regulating that to a set voltage for the output stage of the amplifier is the "tricky" part but a solvable problem (kind of wish I had a EE background).

 

I do love seeing this topic come up here in the forum as it validates that my side hustle/passion.  I'm hopeful to be going to market with some early products to help bring audio enthusiast capabilities to EV (and hopefully Hybrid) vehicles soon (trying to go live end of this calendar year or early next).

 

I would love to see a build log for you new hybrid and hear how things go once you get it in and start bumping it!

[Dafaseles]

18 minutes ago, Arthur79 said:

FWIW, the Tesla Model 3 (all electric) 12v DC inverter is rated at 250 amps.  Still not the same range as a lot of SPL enthusiast builds like you see here, but it's definitely enough for SQ builds and for people that want some solid tunes for daily driving.  I have successfully pulled 150 amps peaks / 60-90 amps loud listening from a Model 3.

 

I have to agree with you and Dafaseles on the lower amperage inverters on the hybrid options.

 

Best bet on the hybrids with limited 12v supply is to focus on efficient speakers (play louder on less power) and clean/efficient class D amplifiers.  I'm a big fan of the D'Amore Engineering E series amplifiers:

 

https://damore-engineering.myshopify.com/collections/audio-amplifiers

 

The next piece that I think is critical for a limited power system is over-the-top sound damping/deadening.  Invest in quality deadener and don't be sparing with it.  If you can find sheet metal in the car, deaden it.  That will help focus as much of the sound energy inside the cabin of the car and prevent loss of acoustic energy through flex/vibration.

 

I'm working towards testing super caps and additional batteries as a way to manage aggressive peaks in current draw on the Model 3 cars.  I think that could get those cars into the lower brackets of the bass enthusiast/SPL crowd (but again doesn't compete with the true bass-head class where they are packing in 2+ high output alternators and lithium batteries).

 

Dafaseles has some decent experience with converting ICE cars to Lithium chemistry batteries that are capable of much higher current draw.  I know on the Tesla cars, converting from  AGM to Lithium requires a firmware update as the charging profile is different.  As Dafaseles will undoubtedly point out as well - you cannot mix different battery chemistries (and for that matter voltages) as it will cause problems.

 

As for the future, I am hopeful but again to Dafaseles's point, it will fall on third parties to bring high power audio to the market.  One of the things I have on my list is figuring out a regulated high voltage DC power supply based audio amplifier.  The DC->DC converters in these hybrid/all eclectic cars are inefficient compared to drawing directly from the high voltage side.  And to your point there is a crap-ton of power stored in the traction batteries, it's just a matter of figuring out how to safely and efficiently tap that power.

 

The biggest challenge I see there is managing to regulate a pretty wide range of voltage from car to car.  The traction battery pack voltage in the Model 3 cars is different from other EV's  So managing a 100ish volt swing on the input side and regulating that to a set voltage for the output stage of the amplifier is the "tricky" part but a solvable problem (kind of wish I had a EE background).

 

I do love seeing this topic come up here in the forum as it validates that my side hustle/passion.  I'm hopeful to be going to market with some early products to help bring audio enthusiast capabilities to EV (and hopefully Hybrid) vehicles soon (trying to go live end of this calendar year or early next).

 

I would love to see a build log for you new hybrid and hear how things go once you get it in and start bumping it!

The only thing I can see right now, and @Fish Chrishas this same question on another forum where I mentioned this before, if I'm not mistaken, the new Ford lightning can power a house for 3 days. I would think, even a small house conserving electricity during an emergency, still has quite a draw. So we plug in home amplifiers into 120v outlets and bang from there? How would that kind of a load effect milage? 

[SnowDrifter]

How long until we start seeing high voltage amplifiers wired directly to the vehicle's HV battery

We all know it's a matter of time until someone comes along, crazy enough to do it 🤔

[Arthur79]

4 minutes ago, Dafaseles said:

The only thing I can see right now, and @Fish Chrishas this same question on another forum where I mentioned this before, if I'm not mistaken, the new Ford lightning can power a house for 3 days. I would think, even a small house conserving electricity during an emergency, still has quite a draw. So we plug in home amplifiers into 120v outlets and bang from there? How would that kind of a load effect milage? 

I hadn't thought of that.  I think the question would be if/which 120v outlets are live when the vehicle is rolling down the road (I expect the cabin outlets would be live but I don't know off the top of my head what they are rated for).  It's still less than ideal in terms of efficiency - you are converting the DC traction battery to AC and generating some heat (power loss) there but as for a day-1 option, I think it's feasible.

 

As for range impact, even if you were pulling 20a at 120v AC for a 2k watt audio system the range impact is probably within the range of standard deviation.  The direction and speed of the wind will impact the range more than listening to the system at full volume all day.

 

There is a guy out on the east coast who has been doing high power high end 12v audio systems in the Model S/X Tesla cars and even driving 3 or 4 high end class A/B Audison and/or Mosconi amps along with all the bells and whistles he's found no discernable range loss. (The Model S/X cars [or at least the earlier ones not sure about the latest releases] are easier to pull a lot of amperage from than the 3's and the Y's).  I have personally done some long-distance road trips in a Model 3 bumping a 1k sub amp and didn't notice any difference in range (again, driving conditions are the biggest factor for impacting range at highway speed).

 

Can't wait for the lighting to release so we can start getting hands on them in the wild.  I'm on the fence about reserving one, but there is a huge market out there for after market audio in those trucks and having one I could tear apart and poke with a stick would be pretty boss.

[Arthur79]

9 minutes ago, SnowDrifter said:

How long until we start seeing high voltage amplifiers wired directly to the vehicle's HV battery

We all know it's a matter of time until someone comes along, crazy enough to do it 🤔

 

That's what I was talking about wanting to do.  There are already high voltage A/C amplifiers that at least 1 guy put in in and EV Fiat (I think it was a Fiat - Dafaseles turned me on to the YouTube video) that is making 20k watts.  The trick is doing the same thing with high voltage DC!

[Dafaseles]

3 hours ago, SnowDrifter said:

How long until we start seeing high voltage amplifiers wired directly to the vehicle's HV battery

We all know it's a matter of time until someone comes along, crazy enough to do it 🤔

 

2 hours ago, Arthur79 said:

 

That's what I was talking about wanting to do.  There are already high voltage A/C amplifiers that at least 1 guy put in in and EV Fiat (I think it was a Fiat - Dafaseles turned me on to the YouTube video) that is making 20k watts.  The trick is doing the same thing with high voltage DC!

So, with the whole wiring a high voltage amp to a high voltage system, how do you make it safe? Either the car manufacturer has to come up with some idiot proof ways of dealing with it (which goes back to my earlier post of car manufacturers don't care about the teeny tiny group of people who buy their cars and want a big aftermarket system) or you take away the 400v.

[Arthur79]

3 hours ago, Dafaseles said:

 

So, with the whole wiring a high voltage amp to a high voltage system, how do you make it safe? Either the car manufacturer has to come up with some idiot proof ways of dealing with it (which goes back to my earlier post of car manufacturers don't care about the teeny tiny group of people who buy their cars and want a big aftermarket system) or you take away the 400v.

 

That is a huge part of it.  Only so much "safety" can be achieved in terms of making sure the interconnects / amplifiers / car computer are all "safe".  Typical stuff applies around fusing, wire insulation, insulated interconnects and probably re-thinking how high voltage DC power is connected to the amplifier(s) but at the end of the day you are still dealing with 400v + DC interconnects.  

 

12v high amperage still comes with it's safety challenges, cars burning down due to improper fusing and wire insulation breaking (ie bad installs) or a battery venting/exploding due to a dead short while working under the hood (bad installer?) but I don't think anyone has ever ever died due to a 12v shock working on their system (could be wrong, but I've not heard of it).  I expect catastrophic failure with Lithium chemistry batteries due to a dead short are even more explosive (both literally and figuratively) but again that's not a shock danger so much as a short danger.

 

I think for a segment of the after market car audio scene (SQ/daily drivers) having a shop manage the install of high voltage equipment is probably ok (and emphasizes the need for shops to have the training and skill to work safely with high voltage).  For the enthusiast scene where things are a lot more DIY, that means upping our game and treating the high voltage supply with the reverence it's due (glove up when working with it and use insulated tools, maybe even have the entire car on a thick rubber mat).  I think so long as people are detail oriented and careful it's attainable.  That said, nobody wants to see a story in the news where someone got seriously hurt (or worse) trying to install tunes in their ride.

[Dafaseles]

20 minutes ago, Arthur79 said:

 

That is a huge part of it.  Only so much "safety" can be achieved in terms of making sure the interconnects / amplifiers / car computer are all "safe".  Typical stuff applies around fusing, wire insulation, insulated interconnects and probably re-thinking how high voltage DC power is connected to the amplifier(s) but at the end of the day you are still dealing with 400v + DC interconnects.  

 

12v high amperage still comes with it's safety challenges, cars burning down due to improper fusing and wire insulation breaking (ie bad installs) or a battery venting/exploding due to a dead short while working under the hood (bad installer?) but I don't think anyone has ever ever died due to a 12v shock working on their system (could be wrong, but I've not heard of it).  I expect catastrophic failure with Lithium chemistry batteries due to a dead short are even more explosive (both literally and figuratively) but again that's not a shock danger so much as a short danger.

 

I think for a segment of the after market car audio scene (SQ/daily drivers) having a shop manage the install of high voltage equipment is probably ok (and emphasizes the need for shops to have the training and skill to work safely with high voltage).  For the enthusiast scene where things are a lot more DIY, that means upping our game and treating the high voltage supply with the reverence it's due (glove up when working with it and use insulated tools, maybe even have the entire car on a thick rubber mat).  I think so long as people are detail oriented and careful it's attainable.  That said, nobody wants to see a story in the news where someone got seriously hurt (or worse) trying to install tunes in their ride.

I guarantee you, many people will die trying to install car audio on 400v. I mean, I've shocked the shit out of myself just with the speaker wires, maybe not the battery itself lol. I don't have confidence in a good percentage of the world saying "I don't have the skills or the knowledge to do this". The do it yourselfer kid who wants to save a little money and do it himself. And maybe 95% of the time, or goes fine. Thing is, 12v hurts. 400v can kill. And it's AC right? I can't remember (which I should. The company I work for is a utilities company that deals with electricity and natural gas... I'm on the gas side🤣) but doesn't AC voltage grab you? Or is it DC? 

Another thing, that's completely up to the manufacturers is, the warrantee. The battery in your car will lose its ability sooner or later and you need a warrantee to replace a $10,000+ battery. But if you hook a little 500 watt amp up to it, will it void that warrantee? My money is on yes. 

If there's a will, there a way. I get it. This is important to us. Not the majority of the population. So, I feel, like if car manufacturers make it impossible, or even just inconvenient, they won't care. It won't hurt sales.