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Where is high powered car audio headed with Hybrid and all electric vehicles ???


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9 hours ago, Dafaseles said:

I guarantee you, many people will die trying to install car audio on 400v. I mean, I've shocked the shit out of myself just with the speaker wires, maybe not the battery itself lol. I don't have confidence in a good percentage of the world saying "I don't have the skills or the knowledge to do this". The do it yourselfer kid who wants to save a little money and do it himself. And maybe 95% of the time, or goes fine. Thing is, 12v hurts. 400v can kill. And it's AC right? I can't remember (which I should. The company I work for is a utilities company that deals with electricity and natural gas... I'm on the gas side🤣) but doesn't AC voltage grab you? Or is it DC? 

Another thing, that's completely up to the manufacturers is, the warrantee. The battery in your car will lose its ability sooner or later and you need a warrantee to replace a $10,000+ battery. But if you hook a little 500 watt amp up to it, will it void that warrantee? My money is on yes. 

If there's a will, there a way. I get it. This is important to us. Not the majority of the population. So, I feel, like if car manufacturers make it impossible, or even just inconvenient, they won't care. It won't hurt sales. 

 

Same on shocking myself on the speaker out side LoL.  So the traction batteries are DC and I know the Tesla cars have DC motors.  The Fiat video you shared a while back has an AC motor so the supply from the DC pack goes through an AC converter, which is how he got away with using the AC high voltage amplifier.

 

I know AC current definitely "grabs" you, or rather causes weird shit with your nervous system resulting in making you clamp down (a bad deal for creatures with opposing thumbs).  I don't know if higher voltage DC has the same effect or not.  I'm desperately trying to remember my Tesla v Edison history when they were duking it out for the grid.  Obviously AC/Edison won out in the long run since AC can be transmitted over long distance with less loss, but I vaguely remember Edison blowing up an elephant with DC current in a demonstration to "prove" how dangerous high voltage DC was (it was a weird time, but just proves that humans have pretty much sucked for ever).

 

As for the warranty stuff, you're totally not wrong.  The same could be argued for tapping into the 12v inverter side of the cars as well.  The only silver lining there is that there are people like Lewis Rossman and Rich from Rich rebuilds that are really pushing forward the Right to Repair act stuff to encompass things like that. 

 

Another FWIW side note, believe it or not - a new battery in the Model 3 cars is only like $3500 (or at least that was the price before the zombie apocalypses, I'm sure it's gone up) making it comparable to some crate motors in cost.  I'm hoping over the next 3-5 years we'll see a significant bump in battery tech meaning you can swap out the battery for an appreciable increase in range but we'll see.

 

The shift in the industry will not be without it's challenges, but I'm still optimistic that we'll see custom audio persist 🙂 

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45 minutes ago, Arthur79 said:

 

Same on shocking myself on the speaker out side LoL.  So the traction batteries are DC and I know the Tesla cars have DC motors.  The Fiat video you shared a while back has an AC motor so the supply from the DC pack goes through an AC converter, which is how he got away with using the AC high voltage amplifier.

 

I know AC current definitely "grabs" you, or rather causes weird shit with your nervous system resulting in making you clamp down (a bad deal for creatures with opposing thumbs).  I don't know if higher voltage DC has the same effect or not.  I'm desperately trying to remember my Tesla v Edison history when they were duking it out for the grid.  Obviously AC/Edison won out in the long run since AC can be transmitted over long distance with less loss, but I vaguely remember Edison blowing up an elephant with DC current in a demonstration to "prove" how dangerous high voltage DC was (it was a weird time, but just proves that humans have pretty much sucked for ever).

 

As for the warranty stuff, you're totally not wrong.  The same could be argued for tapping into the 12v inverter side of the cars as well.  The only silver lining there is that there are people like Lewis Rossman and Rich from Rich rebuilds that are really pushing forward the Right to Repair act stuff to encompass things like that. 

 

Another FWIW side note, believe it or not - a new battery in the Model 3 cars is only like $3500 (or at least that was the price before the zombie apocalypses, I'm sure it's gone up) making it comparable to some crate motors in cost.  I'm hoping over the next 3-5 years we'll see a significant bump in battery tech meaning you can swap out the battery for an appreciable increase in range but we'll see.

 

The shift in the industry will not be without it's challenges, but I'm still optimistic that we'll see custom audio persist 🙂 

AC current basically "activates" your muscles, making you grab whatever you touch. So yeah, have a 2×4 handy, and if you get shocked, tell your buddy to hit you away from it as hard as he can.... just don't aim for the head lol. 

DC isn't a joke either. But it'll mostly push you away. Too much current though will cook you from the inside. I've heard of lineman get hit, being fine for a while but still in pain. I guess your insides are still smoldering I guess and kills you that way. (I stay on the gas side. If rather fall in a hole than fall off a pole🤣)

Well, we all know, as technology advances, things usually become cheaper, or at least better for the same price. 

What's this I hear about new batteries for electric cars? I haven't had a chance to read up about it at all, but apparently the battery will be the body of the car? I don't know if I've heard that through the grapevine correctly. 

2011 Chevy Silverado under construction

My build log here. Check it out! 

 

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5 hours ago, Dafaseles said:

AC current basically "activates" your muscles, making you grab whatever you touch. So yeah, have a 2×4 handy, and if you get shocked, tell your buddy to hit you away from it as hard as he can.... just don't aim for the head lol. 

DC isn't a joke either. But it'll mostly push you away. Too much current though will cook you from the inside. I've heard of lineman get hit, being fine for a while but still in pain. I guess your insides are still smoldering I guess and kills you that way. (I stay on the gas side. If rather fall in a hole than fall off a pole🤣)

Well, we all know, as technology advances, things usually become cheaper, or at least better for the same price. 

What's this I hear about new batteries for electric cars? I haven't had a chance to read up about it at all, but apparently the battery will be the body of the car? I don't know if I've heard that through the grapevine correctly. 

 

It's pretty common place for the battery pack structure to be a significant structural part of the vehicle - mostly because you need that pack to be very rigid and strong/durable so as not to put the cells at risk.  What's had my attention for a little while now are the upcoming solid-state carbon-nano-fiber based batteries.  I think we are going to see them in phones and laptops first and I'm hopeful that the tech will scale up well to vehicles.  I've read some articles that suggest that the energy density is high enough that it may be feasible to consider powering small aircraft with the tech.  There are already a few startups working on going to market with watercraft as well.  The new tech is supposed to "essentially" solve the issues with batteries wearing out that we have now - thus the solid-state part.  I'm not sure that I believe that one of the batteries would last forever without degrading it's charge capacity, but it's supposed to be the next huge step forward!

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4 hours ago, Arthur79 said:

 

It's pretty common place for the battery pack structure to be a significant structural part of the vehicle - mostly because you need that pack to be very rigid and strong/durable so as not to put the cells at risk.  What's had my attention for a little while now are the upcoming solid-state carbon-nano-fiber based batteries.  I think we are going to see them in phones and laptops first and I'm hopeful that the tech will scale up well to vehicles.  I've read some articles that suggest that the energy density is high enough that it may be feasible to consider powering small aircraft with the tech.  There are already a few startups working on going to market with watercraft as well.  The new tech is supposed to "essentially" solve the issues with batteries wearing out that we have now - thus the solid-state part.  I'm not sure that I believe that one of the batteries would last forever without degrading it's charge capacity, but it's supposed to be the next huge step forward!

Well, I really hope a far as big wattage is concerned, something gets figured out and comes into play. Living in California, I can see the state officials have no problem just outright outlawing things that where legal months ago (like diesel engines modifications). So, at any time, it of the blue, I can see them saying by 2026, no more ICE at all on public roads. 

2011 Chevy Silverado under construction

My build log here. Check it out! 

 

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1 hour ago, Dafaseles said:

Well, I really hope a far as big wattage is concerned, something gets figured out and comes into play. Living in California, I can see the state officials have no problem just outright outlawing things that where legal months ago (like diesel engines modifications). So, at any time, it of the blue, I can see them saying by 2026, no more ICE at all on public roads. 

 

Hopefully it's not that aggressive.  It's going to take a decade (or more) before there are suitable "replacement" analogs for ICE vehicles across the board.  I could see Cali going over the top and mandating no new ICE car sales before anywhere else in the states but even IF everyone to a man decided overnight that they wanted to drive hybrids and full electrics, that's just untenable in the short term.  There is an uncomfortably large percentage of our population that is throwing it out there as hard as they can to just have any vehicle so they can work.  Assuming they wanted to switch, unless switching is next to free (or just free) it simply isn't an option.

 

I digress, looking to the lighter side - maybe I can catch a lick and at least make the switch over to EVs more fun for the audio enthusiasts that want to make the switch - If I mange to pull that off I think I'll be ecstatic LoL! 

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37 minutes ago, Arthur79 said:

 

Hopefully it's not that aggressive.  It's going to take a decade (or more) before there are suitable "replacement" analogs for ICE vehicles across the board.  I could see Cali going over the top and mandating no new ICE car sales before anywhere else in the states but even IF everyone to a man decided overnight that they wanted to drive hybrids and full electrics, that's just untenable in the short term.  There is an uncomfortably large percentage of our population that is throwing it out there as hard as they can to just have any vehicle so they can work.  Assuming they wanted to switch, unless switching is next to free (or just free) it simply isn't an option.

 

I digress, looking to the lighter side - maybe I can catch a lick and at least make the switch over to EVs more fun for the audio enthusiasts that want to make the switch - If I mange to pull that off I think I'll be ecstatic LoL! 

I hope you do too. My only worry is... to me...SQ isn't fun of it isn't loud, and loud isn't fun if it sounds like shit. I hope you can figure out both. For all of us. 

 

And P.S., California already announced that by 2030, it will be against the law to sell any new vehicles with internal combustion engines. 

2011 Chevy Silverado under construction

My build log here. Check it out! 

 

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20 minutes ago, Dafaseles said:

I hope you do too. My only worry is... to me...SQ isn't fun of it isn't loud, and loud isn't fun if it sounds like shit. I hope you can figure out both. For all of us. 

 

And P.S., California already announced that by 2030, it will be against the law to sell any new vehicles with internal combustion engines. 

 

I remember you mentioning that about 2030, that's pretty aggressive.  Start planning for your dream 2029 bass ride 😉 

 

I finally finished negotiations on a 2500 square foot shop space today.  The space is in the last stages of construction and should be ready by mid September (this year)  The space is a little more than twice the space I have now.  I'm hoping I can get the concrete sealed, space insulated ,built out, get the HVAC in and fully moved in over the span of about a month.  At that point, I'm going to all but live there so I can finalize the prototype product designs I've been working on and move into actual production.  I'm having a bit of a hard time finding a supplier for one of the product's aluminum housings (trying to figure out how to basically source a small amplifier housing like you would see on a 500 watt micro amp) but I'll get it sorted.  Getting close enough to taste it now ^_^

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22 minutes ago, Arthur79 said:

 

I remember you mentioning that about 2030, that's pretty aggressive.  Start planning for your dream 2029 bass ride 😉 

 

I finally finished negotiations on a 2500 square foot shop space today.  The space is in the last stages of construction and should be ready by mid September (this year)  The space is a little more than twice the space I have now.  I'm hoping I can get the concrete sealed, space insulated ,built out, get the HVAC in and fully moved in over the span of about a month.  At that point, I'm going to all but live there so I can finalize the prototype product designs I've been working on and move into actual production.  I'm having a bit of a hard time finding a supplier for one of the product's aluminum housings (trying to figure out how to basically source a small amplifier housing like you would see on a 500 watt micro amp) but I'll get it sorted.  Getting close enough to taste it now ^_^

Way to cool! You'll be in that big ass shop before I'm done with my doors🤣 

I think what you're doing is super interesting. Please keep us (or at least me lol) updated

2011 Chevy Silverado under construction

My build log here. Check it out! 

 

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On 8/8/2021 at 12:26 PM, Arthur79 said:

FWIW, the Tesla Model 3 (all electric) 12v DC inverter is rated at 250 amps.  Still not the same range as a lot of SPL enthusiast builds like you see here, but it's definitely enough for SQ builds and for people that want some solid tunes for daily driving.  I have successfully pulled 150 amps peaks / 60-90 amps loud listening from a Model 3.

 

I have to agree with you and Dafaseles on the lower amperage inverters on the hybrid options.

 

Best bet on the hybrids with limited 12v supply is to focus on efficient speakers (play louder on less power) and clean/efficient class D amplifiers.  I'm a big fan of the D'Amore Engineering E series amplifiers:

 

https://damore-engineering.myshopify.com/collections/audio-amplifiers

 

The next piece that I think is critical for a limited power system is over-the-top sound damping/deadening.  Invest in quality deadener and don't be sparing with it.  If you can find sheet metal in the car, deaden it.  That will help focus as much of the sound energy inside the cabin of the car and prevent loss of acoustic energy through flex/vibration.

 

I'm working towards testing super caps and additional batteries as a way to manage aggressive peaks in current draw on the Model 3 cars.  I think that could get those cars into the lower brackets of the bass enthusiast/SPL crowd (but again doesn't compete with the true bass-head class where they are packing in 2+ high output alternators and lithium batteries).

 

Dafaseles has some decent experience with converting ICE cars to Lithium chemistry batteries that are capable of much higher current draw.  I know on the Tesla cars, converting from  AGM to Lithium requires a firmware update as the charging profile is different.  As Dafaseles will undoubtedly point out as well - you cannot mix different battery chemistries (and for that matter voltages) as it will cause problems.

 

As for the future, I am hopeful but again to Dafaseles's point, it will fall on third parties to bring high power audio to the market.  One of the things I have on my list is figuring out a regulated high voltage DC power supply based audio amplifier.  The DC->DC converters in these hybrid/all eclectic cars are inefficient compared to drawing directly from the high voltage side.  And to your point there is a crap-ton of power stored in the traction batteries, it's just a matter of figuring out how to safely and efficiently tap that power.

 

The biggest challenge I see there is managing to regulate a pretty wide range of voltage from car to car.  The traction battery pack voltage in the Model 3 cars is different from other EV's  So managing a 100ish volt swing on the input side and regulating that to a set voltage for the output stage of the amplifier is the "tricky" part but a solvable problem (kind of wish I had a EE background).

 

I do love seeing this topic come up here in the forum as it validates that my side hustle/passion.  I'm hopeful to be going to market with some early products to help bring audio enthusiast capabilities to EV (and hopefully Hybrid) vehicles soon (trying to go live end of this calendar year or early next).

 

I would love to see a build log for you new hybrid and hear how things go once you get it in and start bumping it!

WoW ! No shit ??? That's freaking awesome ! And depending on how its setup, IMPO, that many amps can totally make a very loud SQL kind of setup ! I'm thinking several BIG true infinite baffle subs... a few really sensitive mid bass drivers, and a pair of compression horns for mids / highs :) 

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