Absolutely Insane

[dsoccer]

Yeah, I don't even have words for what is going on right now. If you guys listen to Sirius Patriot 144, or actually WATCH C-Span to see what is happening for YOURSELF, you would loose your minds.

This is a side by side comparison to Pre-WWII Nazi Germany. Look it up for yourselves, but the EXACT thing that is happening here now is what went on in Germany. Hitler forced Porche to make a people's car (government in GM and Chrysler), they got in the banks (oh wow... we are screwed on that already), got into health care (happening next), took away all guns (been trying for years, but now it seems as an inevetability (sp). Did you know that Hitler & Nazi Germany didn't just come out of the gates saying that they were going to kill all of the Jews, old people, sick, mentally retarded (I have a mentally retarded Aunt, so this is hitting me square in the face)?? They said what they were doing was for the betterment of society. They SLOWLY (over a few years) began doing these awful things and somehow it was ok. What are they telling us now? It is for the betterment of society.

Now- Somehow it is ok to come into America Illegally and stay here. Somehow it is ok that you shouldn't have a gun (despite it being the second amendment). It is ok if you don't work but still deserve food, money, health care. It is ok for the government to just take over private banks and private car companies. It is ok of the government thinks you make too much money so they tax the piss out of you on a sliding scale. If you make too much money, the government will cap your salary! Obama has appointed 16 ZARS since he has become president! They aren't elected officials! They are appointed and answer ONLY to the president!!! This is TOTALITARISIM (sp)

They aren't doing these things to just a few people- they are doing it to everyone. They are doing this right in front of our eyes but people now, just like in the 30s and 40s around Nazi Germany, are saying "No, that's not what is happening." Yes it is. EDUCATE YOURSELF on the Nazis and their rise to power. This follows it SIDE BY SIDE.

I'm new to the forum, and I think it is nice that there is a political section to voice our views. With that said there has been a lot of car audio knowledge I have learned over the past 6 months or so that I could not have learned on my own, and to all of you thanks.

But there has to be some sort of line that we cannot cross, and this would be one of them. Believe me I respect your voice, but obviously I will disagree with your points; and I hope no offense will be taken, like Meade said in the pin, it is not to flame.

First I think comparing Obama to Hitler’s Nazi Germany is something that has plagued this country for a long time. Believing this is why America is still widely viewed as a hateful, ignorant and closed minded nation. Believing that Obama wants to ethnically cleanse a group of people is absurd to put it nicely.

Listening to radio stations, like the Patriot one above (I have not listened to it personally, but if it is similar to the other million conservative talk shows then I can comment) wraps the minds of the nation. Let’s take Rush for example, how many different things has he come out and said that have just been plain wrong? Plenty. Here’s a good one, when Colin Powell endorsed Obama Rush said “…it is all about race….“blah blah. How is that about race? Just because two people of similar ethnicities agree doesn’t mean its about race, it means it is about where the republican party was headed. Wayyy too far to the right.

Here comes the fun stuff, GM and banks. I don’t like the fact that we have to bail out all of these companies, I do agree its necessary though. Why? Simply for the fact that millions of people will not have work. Manufacturing jobs have been on the absolute decline for decades, all because of cheap labor elsewhere. So what would it mean it GM went down completely…Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana won’t have enough stability in their own economies to stay afloat, period. I am sure there are people on this forum, who have some sort of connection to the big three in one way or another; and GM going away means their job could go away.

The situation with the banks is an easily debated topic, first we shouldn’t have been in the situation to begin with. I believe it all stemmed from the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999, which allowed banks to trade securities, ie overturn Glass-Steagall of 1933. The 1999 Republican Congress drew up this act basically to allow banks like Bank of America to write their own mortgages and basically to use the savings accounts people make deposits in, to make risky loans on the assumption that they would make more money and collect derivatives on them. Obviously it was more complex then that, but it is a simplistic breakdown…this is where, I believe, everything went down hill. Then for years these financial companies were making huuuge amounts of money. The CEOs were taking in huge paychecks and bonuses, all the while Bush was watching it happen. The Republicans took all the credit in the world for the thriving economy, but blame everything on everyone else when things go sour. And who has to clean up their mess? Obama. Please don’t blame Obama for this situation, as he was put into it. That is the moral of the story, he is cleaning up the republican’s mess. The only people that screwed up on the banks were Bush Paulson and Berneke; a 3 page proposal for $700 billion? A little short sighted, no? There was a major scare at the time and many many economists and Berneke were feeding everyone this notion of, if we don’t get this money with unlimited use then we all fail. That is somewhat of a truth, but the way they went about it and the way they spent it was all wrong. Again, not Obama’s fault that the Paulson just took the money and paid who he wanted to (remember he is an ex-CEO of Goldman Sachs)…Paulson is a good example of greedy.

Healthcare is a right, not a privilege. And in the system we have now, it is a privilege, which needs to stop, enough said.

There needs to be stricter guns laws, I believe. I understand, second amendment blah blah (how many times has that come up), but when was the Constitution written (more specifically the amendments ratified)? 1791….a long long time ago. Things are outdated in the Constitution, and need to be revamped. Hell, it took them 100ish years to realize slavery was wrong.

Obviously Hitler wouldn’t have come out to say what his real motivation was, why he would get no supporters, at least a few. In no way Obama can ever be compared to Hitler. To do this is denouncing your country. I bet some of the people who lurk on here still believe Obama isn’t a US citizen and isn’t really the president? Am I right? 

Look, saying closed minded things, such as the list mentioned, is some of how the conservatives work. Saying Obama wants to let illegal immigrants live next door, or Abu Zabaida and his friends are going to live in your neighborhood, are the scare tactics the republicans have been using for decades, and simply in November we found it does not work. Scaring people that Obama will be tested in his first year, by showing clips of explosions and anti-American rally’s is absurd. It’s too bad we, as a country, haven’t come far enough to see through that.

Taxes, this is an easy one to debate. I do not make a whole lot of money in my job, and I can tell you, since Obama has been president, I have seen my paycheck increase; I bet some of you have too. If you make $250k or more a year, you shouldn’t be complaining about getting taxed a little more. Hey you make a lot, stop complaining! The tax bracket will only go up to what Clinton had it at in the 90s, and that is only for $250k plus. But obviously those right wing talk shows won’t tell you that, nor will FOX….but that’s another argument for another time.

Ok lets talk about czars, lets also talk about the over 750 Bush signing statements. That’s not talked about enough. 750!!!! That’s too much to count. If you don’t know what these are, they are little asterisk that a president can put next to a law to basically “re-word” it, or add something to it. One nice little one I heard of is the fact that only congress can enact war, but with one of Bush’s signing statements it said that as commander in chief he can bypass congress and declare war himself…how’s that for unlimited power. And don’t come back at this and say Obama is just following those statements because he is president now. He made it a point to ignore, and others ignore all of the Bush signing statements. Bush wrote far more then any other president.

Again, comparing Obama to Hitler is just wrong and you know it. Comparing him to history’s most dictatorial, ruthless, and racist ruler is ridiculous. Take away from this as you may, but please be more open minded and list to other radio station personalities, and other news stations. Open your mind and you will see that there are more to a story then the ignorance on FOX.

[littleitaly1990]

I'm new to the forum, and I think it is nice that there is a political section to voice our views. With that said there has been a lot of car audio knowledge I have learned over the past 6 months or so that I could not have learned on my own, and to all of you thanks.

But there has to be some sort of line that we cannot cross, and this would be one of them. Believe me I respect your voice, but obviously I will disagree with your points; and I hope no offense will be taken, like Meade said in the pin, it is not to flame.

First I think comparing Obama to Hitler’s Nazi Germany is something that has plagued this country for a long time. Believing this is why America is still widely viewed as a hateful, ignorant and closed minded nation. Believing that Obama wants to ethnically cleanse a group of people is absurd to put it nicely.

Listening to radio stations, like the Patriot one above (I have not listened to it personally, but if it is similar to the other million conservative talk shows then I can comment) wraps the minds of the nation. Let’s take Rush for example, how many different things has he come out and said that have just been plain wrong? Plenty. Here’s a good one, when Colin Powell endorsed Obama Rush said “…it is all about race….“blah blah. How is that about race? Just because two people of similar ethnicities agree doesn’t mean its about race, it means it is about where the republican party was headed. Wayyy too far to the right.

Here comes the fun stuff, GM and banks. I don’t like the fact that we have to bail out all of these companies, I do agree its necessary though. Why? Simply for the fact that millions of people will not have work. Manufacturing jobs have been on the absolute decline for decades, all because of cheap labor elsewhere. So what would it mean it GM went down completely…Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana won’t have enough stability in their own economies to stay afloat, period. I am sure there are people on this forum, who have some sort of connection to the big three in one way or another; and GM going away means their job could go away.

The situation with the banks is an easily debated topic, first we shouldn’t have been in the situation to begin with. I believe it all stemmed from the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999, which allowed banks to trade securities, ie overturn Glass-Steagall of 1933. The 1999 Republican Congress drew up this act basically to allow banks like Bank of America to write their own mortgages and basically to use the savings accounts people make deposits in, to make risky loans on the assumption that they would make more money and collect derivatives on them. Obviously it was more complex then that, but it is a simplistic breakdown…this is where, I believe, everything went down hill. Then for years these financial companies were making huuuge amounts of money. The CEOs were taking in huge paychecks and bonuses, all the while Bush was watching it happen. The Republicans took all the credit in the world for the thriving economy, but blame everything on everyone else when things go sour. And who has to clean up their mess? Obama. Please don’t blame Obama for this situation, as he was put into it. That is the moral of the story, he is cleaning up the republican’s mess. The only people that screwed up on the banks were Bush Paulson and Berneke; a 3 page proposal for $700 billion? A little short sighted, no? There was a major scare at the time and many many economists and Berneke were feeding everyone this notion of, if we don’t get this money with unlimited use then we all fail. That is somewhat of a truth, but the way they went about it and the way they spent it was all wrong. Again, not Obama’s fault that the Paulson just took the money and paid who he wanted to (remember he is an ex-CEO of Goldman Sachs)…Paulson is a good example of greedy.

Healthcare is a right, not a privilege. And in the system we have now, it is a privilege, which needs to stop, enough said.

There needs to be stricter guns laws, I believe. I understand, second amendment blah blah (how many times has that come up), but when was the Constitution written (more specifically the amendments ratified)? 1791….a long long time ago. Things are outdated in the Constitution, and need to be revamped. Hell, it took them 100ish years to realize slavery was wrong.

Obviously Hitler wouldn’t have come out to say what his real motivation was, why he would get no supporters, at least a few. In no way Obama can ever be compared to Hitler. To do this is denouncing your country. I bet some of the people who lurk on here still believe Obama isn’t a US citizen and isn’t really the president? Am I right? 

Look, saying closed minded things, such as the list mentioned, is some of how the conservatives work. Saying Obama wants to let illegal immigrants live next door, or Abu Zabaida and his friends are going to live in your neighborhood, are the scare tactics the republicans have been using for decades, and simply in November we found it does not work. Scaring people that Obama will be tested in his first year, by showing clips of explosions and anti-American rally’s is absurd. It’s too bad we, as a country, haven’t come far enough to see through that.

Taxes, this is an easy one to debate. I do not make a whole lot of money in my job, and I can tell you, since Obama has been president, I have seen my paycheck increase; I bet some of you have too. If you make $250k or more a year, you shouldn’t be complaining about getting taxed a little more. Hey you make a lot, stop complaining! The tax bracket will only go up to what Clinton had it at in the 90s, and that is only for $250k plus. But obviously those right wing talk shows won’t tell you that, nor will FOX….but that’s another argument for another time.

Ok lets talk about czars, lets also talk about the over 750 Bush signing statements. That’s not talked about enough. 750!!!! That’s too much to count. If you don’t know what these are, they are little asterisk that a president can put next to a law to basically “re-word” it, or add something to it. One nice little one I heard of is the fact that only congress can enact war, but with one of Bush’s signing statements it said that as commander in chief he can bypass congress and declare war himself…how’s that for unlimited power. And don’t come back at this and say Obama is just following those statements because he is president now. He made it a point to ignore, and others ignore all of the Bush signing statements. Bush wrote far more then any other president.

Again, comparing Obama to Hitler is just wrong and you know it. Comparing him to history’s most dictatorial, ruthless, and racist ruler is ridiculous. Take away from this as you may, but please be more open minded and list to other radio station personalities, and other news stations. Open your mind and you will see that there are more to a story then the ignorance on FOX.

No one's ignorance can compete with ABC or NBC; Fox and CNN are pretty hand in hand in the propaganda race. Talk radio is almost always slanted towards the neocons. Newspapers slant towards the owner. The internet is a complete battleground. You obviously have no bullshit detector, or it would of went off when you heard that the president can declare war. He can't officially declare war, only congress can, and only your liberally biased news would tell you he can simply reword something and do as he please with it. Congress still has to sign off on it. Thanks for playing, please try again.

Oh and how is comparing Obama to Hitler wrong, we compare all presidents with Hitler at 1 point. He was a powerful leader and comparing the socialist agenda of Bush and Bammers to his Fascist on is fair game. Again, thanks for playing, but saying Fox is ignorant is not an argument. /story.

[dsoccer]

No one's ignorance can compete with ABC or NBC; Fox and CNN are pretty hand in hand in the propaganda race. Talk radio is almost always slanted towards the neocons. Newspapers slant towards the owner. The internet is a complete battleground. You obviously have no bullshit detector, or it would of went off when you heard that the president can declare war. He can't officially declare war, only congress can, and only your liberally biased news would tell you he can simply reword something and do as he please with it. Congress still has to sign off on it. Thanks for playing, please try again.

Oh and how is comparing Obama to Hitler wrong, we compare all presidents with Hitler at 1 point. He was a powerful leader and comparing the socialist agenda of Bush and Bammers to his Fascist on is fair game. Again, thanks for playing, but saying Fox is ignorant is not an argument. /story.

thats nice, thanks for allowing me to play. I appreciate your inclusiveness.I never said that NBC wasn't a little biased, it is....but the alternate reality FOX covers is comical. I see CNN as more of a center news station. ABC, I can't comment on (I don't watch enough of it). Regarding the declaring war part.....like I said Bush made it so he can if he wanted to, basically the idea of it is that it gives the president more power then he should ever have. Perhaps I didnt explain it correctly, or I used my liberally biased ideas to spin it, ha. To be more specific, his signing statement stated that he can side step, or ignore, any act of congress that has to do with the military.

I have never heard that Reagan ever compared to Hitler for one, and two I do not think your statement is valid at all. I think that is is ridiculous to constantly be hearing from that right, that Obama is communist, socialist, tolitarian, facsict...pretty much every negative affiliation you can come up with. It is tiring, would anyone be calling him a fascist if the it wasnt part of the talking points from Baynor or Cantor?

Your right, stating FOX is ignorant is not an arguement, it is my opinion, and has yet to be debated.

I wrote a lot on there, and answered back every point made, I guess I was right on point with my bank assesment, or tax explanation?

Maybe my bullsh*t detector is working, but I am always open for conversations or new ideas. And if they dont agree with my view points, I will tell you.

....mmmm, maybe I should be thanking you for playing, but I'm not going to discourage people from expressing thier opinions.

[littleitaly1990]

No I didn't feel like reading it, I have to move out today and just glanced and saw propaganda and jumped on it. Once again, he CANNOT side step anything regarding declaring war. He can say he declares war, but unless congress declares war, it is nothing more than if you and I were to say it. Some of Fox news is quite comical, especially when the Daily Show and Colbert Report constantly point out all of there flaws and stupid mistakes, which is hilarious. Unfortunately Viacom doesn't allow them to do the same with the other news channels Viacom owns (I wonder why). This does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that NBC, CBS, and ABC aren't just a ridiculous if seen from an independent's point of view.

I would like to point out how your ignorance proceeds you very well. You totally jumped on me about saying Obama is a socialist, which he 100% is (take a look at a political spectrum sometime and see if you can tell me otherwise). You did manage to ignore the fact that I said Bush was a complete socialist as well, and screwed over those who originally voted for him because he was supposed to be pro-small government (don't worry, both sides lie just as much).

And on Obama, he is a socialist, not a commie, not a fascist, not totalitarian. He however does have traits that fall into each of those categories, as do most political leaders, and comparing them to the extremes is the easiest way to see just how similar/different they are.

[dsoccer]

Oh good luck...Maybe on a rainy day . I read this whole thing in an article, a while back...not sure where or when. But I just found a site that has the signing statements. When I have a chance I'll see what I can find regarding this.

Jon Stewart...the man, no way around it. Although I do see him take shots at MSNBC for some dumb things they do. Not 100% biased, but I see your point.

I'll throw this out there:

Socialism - a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

I don't see how the govnt cropping up companies (who are legally binding to pay the govnt back) who would otherwise cause detriment to the economy even more, is socailism. I dont see Obama coming out and saying now that we (when he says we, he means the American people) own 60% of GM, and now I am going to run everythign the way I think it should. uh not at all. Look you want to see what a socialist government looks like, look at Sweden, no one complains over there that college is 100% paid for, but that is besides the point. Just because he has to crop up failing companies by staking ownership in them does not mean he is taking them over for his, or his administration's, personal gains. It is simply to help the smaller people who would otherwise lose thier job. He is basically giving them a loan in which they will repay him. That would be ignorance on your part for not seeing how these bailouts are structured, but yet argue against that.

Oh excuse me, saying he had a socialist agenda means he is 100% socialist, my ignorance did not allow me to see this . I am not going to dwell on this.

I would like to put this here:

We are now living in a Fascist nation. Hitler and Mussolini would be proud: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Administrati...00519.html?.v=6

your words...saying we are living in a Fascist nation, ie Obama made this country Fascist. Here is another definition for you.

Fascism - a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

1. We live in a democracy with 3 branches of government with absolute checks and balances.....no way can a dictator gain power.

2. He does not have complete power, and if he did we would have universal healthcare right now, and republicans would not be able to voice thier opinion, or even be considered.

3. Every bill that has come Obama's way has been debated over and over and over again with every side sitting down at the table to discuss, ie NOT suppressing opposition and criticism.

4. Regimenting....again these are loans in which they will be paid back.

5. He has an ethnically diverse administration and has been exposed to racism in his life, he is not a racist.

You contradict yourself again. You say he is 100% socialist in one sentence and then says he has socialist traits....which is it? And going to extremes politically serves no purpose. If we play that game then McCain is a right wing extremist, similar to James Von Brunn…..I do not agree with that statement AT ALL, and I dislike McCain quite a bit, but lumping political leaders into those types of categories is why we are talking about it now, simply irrelevant and damaging to society.

PS. This is a very constructive and enjoying conversation, please do not be offended.

[dsoccer]

Ok, so I found the signing statement. I do agree that it is not about declaring war, however it is about the commander in chief's right to use the military in any way he pleases. Here is the statement (it begins on the right side of the first page): http://www.coherentbabble.com/Statements/SSsjr23.pdf

The first part he is basically saying that after 9/11 we are constantly under threat of attack. So by using that, he then goes on the say he can use the military armed forces as he pleases (in not so many words) under the War Powers Resolution. The War Powers Resoolution says that the president can do what he wants with the military if he feels the US is threatened. As as he said early the US is continually under threat of attack.

Ie he can use the military as he please without Congress.

[Colin - STAPUFT]

You did everything but come out and say you love socialism.

I'm not addressing anything that has been said, because we will all talk ourselves blue in the face. I am just happy we still have the freedom to speak and have different opinions. I can try to change others to my way of thinking- that is all I can do, and that is all others can do- try. I am glad for that freedom.

I will go back to my statement I made some time ago about socialism- and since this is an audio forum.....

-You have 2 subwoofers and I have none. Give me one. Just give it to me. Not because you want to, but because you HAVE to. That is "fair" right? Why do you need 2 when I have none? It doesn't matter that I don't work, or don't want to pay for one- you have two, I have none, give me one of yours. ...sigh. THE WORLD ISN'T FAIR. Not everyone gets delt the same cards. There are winners and losers. There will always be poor. ....at the rate we are going, there won't be any rich, but there will always be poor.

I'm done.

[dsoccer]

I disagree with that point about socialism. I have never experienced it (I don’t believe you have either, I may be wrong) to comment that I "love" it nor hate it. I just know the fundamentals, those to which I can make or not make my own view of what is going on. I am just making the point what Obama is doing does not exactly coincide with the fundamentals of socialism. Obviously in the days of free speech/thinking, we can always make a definition or statement mean what we want. We interpret things different, some right some wrong .

But given the definition of socialism I posted earlier I was simply making the argument against his “socialist agenda.” I don’t believe what he is doing is socialism.

I agree with you on the sub comment, as I enjoy my two subwoofers . I agree you get what you earn, I do not agree that if I have two and you have none that I should give you one because it is fair. So please don’t assume that is what I am thinking or saying. To make that assumption is out there. Anyway, when Clinton raised taxes to the level they were before (off the top of my head I think it was 37.5% for the wealthiest) I don’t think its asking much for those people making a lot of money to give a little more. Isn’t that what helping the community is all about? Some people’s standards of living are terrible, and with those people making say $2 mil+ a year, they have more money then they know what to do with…why not (instead of charity) give a little more in taxes. Remember the tax bracket will go back to Clinton-era taxes….I don’t know about you, but I don’t think the Republican Congress was complaining back then.

There will always be the rich and the poor. The tax cuts Bush put in place just made the rich richer and the poor poorer. Obama wants that margin to shrink. I have nothing against Capitalism (as I think you are assume), I enjoy the competition. Hell, without it we may be paying double for our subs .

Well I hope your not “done” as this is enjoyable, debating on forums. Go between politics and subs….what’s better then that?

[Colin - STAPUFT]

Ok... so I'm not done.

On the Clinton Era tax stuff- that was before I really cared about politics, so I don't know how much Republicans were or were not complaining. There was a time that I considered myself a Republican. There was also a time (had I been alive then) that I would have called myself a Democrat. The parties and their agendas just seem to float around so much. If I had to classify myself as anything, it would be a Conservative Libertarian. But back to the point on the taxes... I don't think any president or party has gotten that right yet. ...And the only thing I have ever defended Bush on was that we didn't have another terrorist attack on our soil since 911 (Clinton's term there was the twin towers the first time, the battleship Cole (I saw this ship being repaired on the MS Coast), the US embassy, and on... but I digress).

I shouldn't be made to give more because I make more. I think that is absurd. It kills the incentive to make more and more income. Have you ever known people who didn't want a raise because they would make less money? Have you ever known people who don't want to work because they are better off on wellfare? I have and do know people like this. I had a job once where I worked 12 hours of OT one week and made an additional $20!!! The rest went to taxes, and no, I didn't get it back at the end of the year. Woo Hoo- 12 hours work for $20! Screw that! That is what I said. It actually cost me more to work than if I hadn't due to gas and lunch!

I think there should be only one tax. A flat sales tax. SALES TAX. Name some absurd amount that is more like what people really pay on their total taxes. Like.... oh, 50-60%. No social security, no income tax, no telephone tax, no homestead tax (how are you going to tax me on what I own?!?!), no car tag tax (again... tax me on something that I already own), no inheritance tax (total bs- my parents get taxed their whole life and squeak by to give me what they have left and then that is taxed AGAIN). Flat SALES tax. Everyone pays it. EVERYONE. The poor, comfortable, wealthy, super rich, impoverished.... (I have been 3 of those, if you start from the bottom, it isn't hard to figure that out). Everyone pays the same percentage of what they purchase, not what they make. People are incentivised to MAKE money and produce things. People are incentivised to save money and depend on themselves. Most importantly- people TRULY decide how much in taxes they want to pay.

But.... you know that would never work. Besides not getting through politics, the IRS not ever going away, and the government never giving up that kind of control and knowledge of how much they will make in taxes.... unless that was implemented slowly, the economy would crash! No one would buy anything BECAUSE they would know what they are really paying in taxes... so they wouldn't. But guess what- they couldn't ramp it up, because they already have. We do have sales tax, state and federal, AND the other taxes. They have already started that but just aren't getting rid of the income and other side of the taxes.

You know they are about to start taxing SODA at a per ounce rate? No joke- they know how much soda is sold, so if they tax it per ounce, they just see $$$. And when people recoil and cut back on their soda intake, they will raise the soda tax and then start taxing potable water, then something else and something else..... We are screwed. Dah!!!!

[dsoccer]

I knew you'd be back . I’m sure, like me, you can’t just let someone get the last word ha!

First paragraph…. I respect that. Can’t really debate on the facts

On the second paragraph, obviously I’m not in your shoes nor do I claim to be an expert, but working 12 OT hours and only making $20 just doesn’t make sense. You are in MS right (it says it on your info), so if the minimum wage is $7.05 x 12 = $84.60. Now take away 35% for taxes (that’s the highest as of right now (for $250k plus people, but assuming its minimum wage, and the sake of tax bracket argument), that is only $29.61 taken in taxes which leaves you with $54.99. Now again I don’t know the situation, the math just doesn’t seem right….but off topic.

Interesting point, but I don’t think sales tax alone would be able to pay for all of the government run programs that are out there, whether we know what they are or not. There would be alooot less cops out there (mmm…may be a good thing ) less fire men, roads would go to hell….list goes on. So I understand your point, and an interesting one, I just don’t think that would cover enough. What about the people that hoard their money anyway? They don’t contribute to the tax system. As the great Joe Biden once said….its American to pay taxes  jk. I hate taxes as much as the next guy, but I feel that without them, we wouldn’t have some of the things we take for granted. Or how about the multi millionaire Wall street CEO who makes 12 mil a year, but doesn’t buy anything new because he has everything. Shouldn’t some of his money go back into the system? Its all about cost of living, if you make lots you are live pretty comfortably, what’s wrong with some extra money out of your pocket? When you make a lot, you don’t have to worry about bills being paid etc etc.

Bottom line, wherever you go you will be taxed. Like that saying goes only thing certain in life are death and taxes. It’s just a matter of who should give a little more.

Ha I did not hear that, interesting, but I just read an article saying it is for the help over healthcare, reasonable. It stated that it would estimate to be 3 cents per 12 oz of soda…I don’t know about you but 3 cents isn’t a lot. Especially when I rarely drink soda.

Anyway, good points and an interesting change of pace – thanks.