loopkiller
-
Posts
54 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Media Demo
Store
Collections
Videos
Posts posted by loopkiller
-
-
Any chance the OP received word back on that amp yet?
-
its true.
And strength itself is definitely not the reason for crimping. I never suggested putting lots of force on the connections, but what happens when you get in a fender bender and some of your batteries shift forward a half an inch, enough to put tension on some random wire in your battery bank.
Now is it gonna be a $500 bumper fix or a totaled ball of flaming equipment?
That may be extreme but stranger things have happened. Besides, if you're skeptical at all...theres always that whole scientific fact of the better electrical connection which you can use to justify your choice to crimp.
I see your point on the collision angle, but I doubt the type of soldering that was shown in the OP would not break any easier vs a standard crimp. I guess we just disagree about that.
As far as what is a better electrical connection, obviously a proper crimps is best, but a crimp alone will quickly corrode, leaving you with a poor electrical connection. The soldered connection is not measurably less of an electronic connection in the realm of car audio. Maybe in a scientific lab, you could run test to show that as fact, but it will not hurt your burps or make you sub pound harder. It just makes more sense to give up the minimal electrical loss for the gain in wire protection.
-
Ok... testing, tweaking, and understanding batteries is my job... it's what I do and know. Trust me... this is not an apples to apples comparison. Consult an expert... test for yourself... do something other than make assumptions... please.
I have done the research based on what other competitors have said from their own usage. Since I am not personally a competitor, I do rely on what others say around the forums. I will admit that because of that, my stance is not as solid as yours. I will concede there.
The problem here is that you are making incorrect assumptions to draw your conclusions. While I am sure Ed listens to music with his system on occasion, the numbers he has quoted are from competition runs. Our wattage chart was not created to determine the needs of world class SPL competitors. As a competitor I can tell you that there has never been a time when I have thought to myself "I am going to follow the manufacturer's recommendations to try and break a world record." My subs were rated at 2,000W... I used 15,000W, my amps were recommended to run at 2ohms... I ran them at .35ohms, box was recommended 1" thick MDF... I used 20" plus! I know what it takes to compete successfully, and I have built and installed daily driver systems for over 15 years... please tell me where you see a misconception, and please tell me I have something to hide! I guarantee you that if Ed wanted to pound out his system you would have to exit from the vehicle long before he ran out of juice to power the amp.
See here is the rub, your wattage chart is so vague that it is left open for interpretation. If it was more specific, your customers would be more able to discern the info given. So if your chart had told me that the D925 can support 2500W, but only when I have a 300A alt, playing Yanni, and that 2500W is a peak watts, not RMS, then I could buy it. But there is not a single situation where I could imagine that a D925 that weighs under 27 pounds could power a ZX2500.1 full tilt on bass heavy music and not be well below operating voltage. And it is not the fault of the D925. I am sure that is a great product per pound when compared to other brands. It is just that it is woefully undersized for the application. A D3100 I am sure would handle that application and then some. So, again, I don't take issue with your companies products or their quality. It is just the ratings.
Hey... be my guest! Keep picking! Kinetik claimed their 16V to be 1050CA. A Cranking Amp test is an industry standard performance test that is fully verifiable. Do you want to know what the Independent Testing Laboratory found it to be? Would you believe 492A? Powermaster didn't claim it, they proved it in Federal Court. It's a public case btw, so feel free to waste more of your time digging up the results for yourself if you wish. So again... I urge you to please buy or borrow some of our products and prove to me that they do not do what we say they will.
Now Scotty, tell me what CAs have to do with car audio? I will never defend the inflated specs of the battery industry. They all do it. Not to mention that CA and CCA are all pretty much useless today, even outside of car audio. Today's cars can start with very minimal cranking power. I know you guys do racing stuff, so I am sure that matters there, but I do not have a clue about race cars.
Oh, and since PM took down the link for the lawsuit, I have not seen anything else regarding that case. Did you guys win against Kinetik too? I know that you settled with some of the other companies. If it was a hush hush thing, I understand that you can't talk about it.
Oh... while we're on the topic of value... lets do some comparisons here and see how they work out, ok?
3 - HC2400's $329ea (first price found on google search) = $987
8 - D925's $139ea (normal internet price from google) = $1112
Total difference = $125... SPL gained +2db... when I was a competitor, I would have spent thousands to gain 2+db!!!
Wanna look at it a different way? Lets compare weight, ok?
3 - HC2400's 69lbs ea. = 207lbs.
8 - D925's 26.63lbs ea. = 213lbs.
hmm... 6 pound difference. Same amount of weight... +2dB for $125 extra. Am I getting through to you yet???
I guess I am just looking at it in a different way than you are, because everything you just said seems to strengthen my point, at least IMO. The fact that your product that Ed is using is very close to the Kinetik product in price, weight, and performance is exactly my point. Again, I want to reiterate this one point, I don't think your product is inferior to the Kinetik brand. I would assume if we compared one of the Kinetik batteries that weighed the same, it would be a better apples to apples, but I am not even interested in doing that.
My only point here is this: Since both situations for Ed were very close in most cases, you could assume that the three HC2400 and the eight D925 would be relatively close in performance ratings. They are not even close. And it is not like there is a minor difference in ratings. Each D925 is rated higher than each HC2400, yet it took eight of the D925 to surpass the performance of three HC2400. That seems so easy to comprehend. Maybe you still think the Kinetik ratings are invalid since you still hold that your ratings are not flawed. Maybe you are thinking that the Kinetik ratings are too low?
What you do with Batcap is your business... that does not pertain to this topic. Stating that our marketing is wrong, is bashing. You are trying to convince the buying public that our recommendations are purposely wrong or misleading, when in fact they are not. You are entitled to your opinion, if you choose to ignore our recommendations that is fine, I get your point. Now you can "be done with it"
I am sorry if you see it as bashing because that really is not my intent at all. I just wanted some clarification on the ratings so I could help people who are looking for good batteries. I just want to give sound advice is all.
Fine by me if you wanna hide behind a screen name... I was just checking to see if you were going to stand behind your statements, or just hide behind them at your computer. You made the obvious choice.
Yes I will hide behind my computer. What difference would it make if you knew my name? And it is not like I am hiding it from you per se, I just feel that there are a lot of people who read these forums and I would prefer that some of these nut jobs not know where to find me. I do not see you as a threat, but I have seen some crazy mofos on these forums and I would rather feel safer sleeping at night knowing my identity is protected. I would never put my self out there like Steve has. I would never put my family in that position. I don't want people coming to my house looking for my system or what have you.
After all the explanation I've given, I am afraid comprehension > you Sir.
Ok, so I guess you have regressed to the position of the typical forum bully by posting fail pics. I would have hoped you would have kept this more professional than that. Since you are representing a large company, I would have expected better.
-
I take any post seriously that contradicts the way we present our company. You are certainly welcome to your opinion, and I, as well as others value that. The forums are here for the sole purpose of contributing to the community, and that is why we (XS Power) are here. For you to repeatedly boast that our ratings and recommendations are wrong (instead of that you do not totally agree with them) is not contributing, it is bashing. I would have no issue with you disagreeing with our recommendations if you had actual experience with our products. However, you can-not use your experience with your battery to determine the performance of ours, just as I would not use my experience driving my Malibu to determine the performance of a Vette.
When you say that “it rubs you the wrong way when the info on our site contradicts what people like you suggest”… maybe this means you should reconsider your suggestions, or maybe (like I’ve said numerous times) you have higher expectations than what the average consumer is looking for. I am sure if we followed your recommendations we would sell a lot more batteries to people that may not need them, but that is not our intention. Our recommendations are a guideline that fits for the majority… if you don’t want to follow our recommendation then that is up to you… you are outside of that guideline.
Oh… you avoided the question. Who are you again?
I was using Ed's experience with the products as an example of my conclusions of your marketing. It is not Malibu vs Vette as you would like it to be. It is more like apples to apples, or Red Delicious vs Granny Smith.
It is clear from the Ed example that the D925 is not capable of handling the 2500W that your marketing insists. Now maybe your marketing is referring to 2500W peak and not RMS. Maybe it is under strict circumstances. But none of that is apparent from your marketing info anywhere. I sure have never seen you clear up the misconceptions. I doubt you ever will.
The reason why I think I have a bone to pick with your marketing in general is because it was PowerMaster who claimed that Kinetik over-rated their products, when in fact, Ed's example shows the exact opposite. Not only did the Kinetik's provide more power than their ratings, but the XS units are falling well short of their respective ratings. So unless you want to go further down that path and get into a pissing match, I am done with it.
As for helping you sell more products, that is never my intention. But I may have done so inadvertently in the past. I know that I have recommended the D3400 and the D3100 many times. I think they are very good products and worthy of buying. I think that if a person can find a good value for the XS brand, they are reliable products. I will continue to recommend them on that basis. What I will not do, is recommend them based on the marketing info you give.
And for the record, I bash the hell out of Batcap, they suck. I have never bashed your products. I have only pointed out the errors of your marketing. I see a difference there.
As for who I am, if I wanted my name known, I would have said so. But I can assure you, you do not know me. I am not anything more than your average car audio enthusiast that happens to like to contribute the boards.
just want to say about my switch from Kinetik.
No matter what electrical differences occurred in my switch, look at my dB Drag Stats, I can pin point the exact time I switched, because my SPL increased 2dB.
Not only that but my Kinetiks were going bad. The highest I got my SPL in testing with Kinetiks was 151.4, then 2 had dead cells and I dropped to 149 dB. Then installed the XS Powers and up to 152.6dB. After some tuning, 153.5dB
So what you are saying is that the three HC2400s rated at 7200W were 1.2db less than the eight D925s rated at 20,000W. That is my point, thanks for helping.
-
wow... I've got a question for ya loopkiller...
Who are you?
I mean, as smart as you are about everything it seems, don't you want people to know who you are so they can appreciate all the knowledge you've bestowed upon us? Don't you want to brag about all the competition championships you have won, or all the prestigious degrees that you have earned in engineering, new product development, sales and marketing?
Seriously, how much time do you spend searching other forums and formulating a defense against every thread you post in? Is this your full time job? I've never thought about how much it must pay to be a keyboard commando.
At XS Power we do not feel that there is any benefit to taking part in confrontational situations on an internet forum. It becomes very difficult to participate and be a part of forum activity if we are continually going to get bashed and second guessed by someone who will not even identify themselves. You have been provided with many examples of the performance of our products, but for some reason you refuse to believe it. As I have asked in another thread on the same subject, please take the opportunity to test one of our batteries and use it as suggested and then tell me it does not work or is over-rated. I have also explained that our wattage recommendations are meant to be used as a general guideline to help enthusiasts choose the best product to fit their needs. If you have extra-ordinary needs, then maybe you should not refer to our recommendations, but use your own methods to determine what you need. You certainly seemed qualified enough to figure out what you need on your own without having to refer to a chart or to anyone else for advice.
I really hope that I do not have to continually check the forums only to have to copy and paste this exact post over and over to make sure that the buying public does not get a bad impression from your comments. If you have further technical questions I will be happy to help assist you in your choice of batteries.
Wow Scottie, I wish I had all those things to brag about, but to be brutally honest, I am just your average guy who loves car audio and has too much time on my hands.
I don't hold any championships, degrees, or awards. None.
I have never competed. I don't have any awards, at least not since I won my Pinewood Derby race as an 8 year old Cub Scout.
What I do know is that people come here for your extensive knowledge because we all know very well that you are one of the best in the business. I have never dissed you as a person of knowledge. I am not riding your nuts or anything, but anyone who knows car audio knows about Scotty Johnson. You have my respect there.
Now as far as your business is concerned, I do take issue with some of your product ratings. I do see them as being inflated. I like to help the newcomers to the sport on the forums because it is the easiest way to contribute and well as the best place for them to get the info they need. It just rubs me the wrong way when the info on your site contradicts what people like me suggest. It is not like I want to be right to spite you, it just seems awfully strange that the XS ratings are much higher than comparable products from your competition.
I personally have a Kinetik in my car and it works great for me. I have recommended your products in the past as well. I also think that Stinger/Odyssey/Hawker/Deka all have a very good product as well. I usually tell people to find one that meets your budget and go with that. So it is not like I have something against you or your company (or it's products) per se. It is your marketing that I take fault with. I think that has become increasingly apparent.
If and when my Kinetik does die, I would highly consider buying an XS unit as a replacement. I would give it the same chance at my business as any of the other brands I mentioned above. I would buy the one I thought was the best value. If that ended up being the XS, I would pull the trigger for sure.
Hope you don't take most posts all that seriously...
-
OK Ed, now I did a little snooping into some of your past posts on some of the other forums and saw that you used to use the Kinetik batteries. You used to run the same setup with three HC2400 batteries. You said in previous posts that even under a very heavy and long load you would never drop below 12.0V with the Kinetik setup. Here are the posts where I found this info. I have cut out some of the unimportant parts, but the links to the full posts are here as well, in case you are worried about being taken out of context.
Quote LinkI am running my Maxximus 10,000 from my stock alt. I have a few batteries in there. Currently 3 Kinetik HC2400s and voltage drops from 14.6v to 12.2 or so at a full burp and I measured over 11,000w output of the amp...
Quote Link...The longest full tilt burp attempted was 30 seconds and voltage dropped to 12.00v. I did this just testing a 46hz tone on Bass Race metering and averaged 150.5 dB over the 30 seconds.
Quote Link...I have 384 ah of battery storage.
Consuming a max of 916A (measured). for my max measured time of 30 seconds.
So I can theoretically deplete my entire battery storage in about 25 minutes.
So in 30 seconds I am depleting 2% of my reserve...
Ok, so now we have a decent heads up comparison to the two different batteries that you have ran. Let's look at the specs provided for each of these batteries:
Kinetik HC2400
Rated for 2400W
13in x 6.7in x 8.2in
69 lbs
XS D925
Rated for 2500W
6.5in x 6.93in x 4.92in
23.37 lbs
Now since you had only three of the HC2400s and they are rated for 2400W each, then they should only be rated to handle about 7200W, which is much less than your 12kW system, yet they held up pretty well. But, with the eight D925s, which are rated for 2500W each, or a total of 20,000W, you don't seem to make much gains, if any. So I guess one could assume that the Kinetik batteries are under-rated and the XS is over-rated.
Would you agree?
And then there is this rating that you gave above saying that your amp pulls a max of 916A and that you measured that to be sure. Well let's do some simple math here. I will use 13.0V for these arguments, even though you end up dropping below that at the end of the burp.
916A x 13.0V = 11,908W (before amp efficiency is figured) x 90% = 10717W
Now I think this would confirm your previous statement that you make over the 10kW the amp is rated for, assuming that your 90% efficiency rating holds true, even at full tilt. But, just for the sake of argument, let's take a look at that same math with a more realistic amp efficiency of 70%.
916A x 13.0V = 11,908W (before amp efficiency is figured) x 70% = 8335.6W
This is more likely the case. Now since Hifonics rates your amp at 10kw @ 14.4V and they give a fuse rating of 1000A.
1000A x 14.4V = 14,400W
10,000W / 14,400W = 69.4%
So I would assume that Hifonics would expect about a 70% efficiency from this particular amp, kind of like I suggested before.
So under this new math, we can assume that you are making about 8300W from eight 2500W batteries.
-
stock alt in the HHR 2 LT with the 2.4L is 120A,
80% efficient is low compared to alot of the big amps out there now.
I am tested and seen tests of other 5K plus amps at 90-95% efficiency.
85-90% seems to be a standard nowadays.
Wow they do 90% at full rated power? That is some cool stuff. I always thought that amps would become much less efficient at full rated power. From what I had heard in the past is that they usually drop 10% to 20% in efficiency under full load vs rated efficiency at low power draw. Reason being that they make much more heat as a by product under full load and that shows in the amp efficiency.
-
Thanks man,
Stock alternator. These batts charge quick and easy.
DC amp draw was under 1200A, but I forget the exact number.
Wow! That is one hell of an efficient amp!
1200A x 12.5V = 15kw
12kW / 15kw = 80% efficiency under full load
That is kind of hard to believe... wow.
Not to mention that the stock alt is doing what, 100A max? So that puts the battery draws at 1100A total, or about 140A per battery. So those small D925 only drop to 12.5V under a 140A load? That is pretty amazing stuff.
-
The meter I used was a true RMS but not with the shunt transformer. This method was approved by the CFO of the company I was working for, he is the head electronic engineer for the company.
Usually you dont need to multiply by .707 but its because we were using a seperate shunt to handle the high current.
Hmm, I will take your word for it. So, anyways, I like the build and I think it looks really nice with the lighting.
How much amperage are you drawing on the DC side when pushing 12kW? What type of alts do you have? It just seems like those batteries should drop further than 12.5V under a 1300A load.
-
I measure the loaded AC Voltage output at full burp at my frequency of 42hz. (imp rise can change at different frequencies)
At the same time I use a shunt connected to a true RMS bench top multi meter set to AC current.
I take my 2 numbers and multiply as P= I x E, or wattage= Current x Voltage.
Then I also multiply by .707 for the root mean.
If you have an RMS meter, then why multiply by .707 again? You might be right, but from what I understood is that you should already have an RMS value before multiplying it. I thought you only did that with peak values?
-
nope, stock alt (for now)
all 12v.
charges at 14.4
during burp, drops to 12.5 on avg.
Just a slightly underrated amp.
On 16v systems charging at 17.9v, people have gotten 18K out of them.
And just how are you measuring the output to know that you are getting 12kW out of it?
-
I am getting about 12K out of that amp and those batteries are great for that.
But I will be adding power, probably about 24K.
These batteries are great cause of the quick power transfer and the fact that I can mount them anywhere. I can stuff them under seats if I have to.
You must be running a 16v charge to them then? I know those amps are only rated up to 10kw @ 14.4v. Since the D925 is a 12V battery, you must have one hell of a 16V alt powering that amp to make 12kw. Not sure how else you would get 12kw out of a 12V battery bank.
-
Nice install Ed, but why so many batteries? I see 8 of the D925, but you mention that you need more? Might want to think about a bigger battery. IIRC that amp makes about 10kW and each of those D925 are rated for 2kw each, so the 8 you have already should power 16kW... right?
EDIT: Oops, the D925 is rated for 2500W here, so that would be enough to power 20kW, or two of those amps?
-
Not from a technical standpoint it doesn't. Just because he said it was charged, does not give me any indication that it really was. There were no details or voltages provided in his post that would allow me to assume that, yes, the battery really was fully and properly charged.
I guess we should question how he knew they were charged instead of assuming that they were not charged then. I assumed he was correct when he said they were fully charged. You seemed to have assumed they must not have been charged. Difference of opinion.
In my many years of help and support to spl competitors and customers, if you assume that who you are talking to knows what they are talking about you can waste a lot of valuable time troubleshooting the wrong thing if you dont have all the correct info from the beginning. This guy didn't even send an email or call in to the tech dept to try and figure out what was wrong with his charging system... he just convinced himself that it was the batteries and sent them back before even asking. Makes me wonder why he would even bother posting here after the fact???
I agree. My first call would have been the help line or my supplier.
Take a look at our wattage chart and explain why you think the D1200 could not provide supplementary power to a 3,000W amp when installed along with a primary battery?
It takes about 180A of current to supply a 3,000W amplifier to full output. Is it not possible that a stock battery paralleled with a D1200 in the back (right next to the amp) could provide 180A of current to the amplifier even taking the alternator out of the equation? Of course it can... and sure the state of the stock battery plays a big role, as does the alternator, and the installation, but I can tell you that the D1200 can provide the bulk of the 180A with no problem. Plus, he was using two D1200's... plus the stock location battery (from what I can tell a Redtop)... if he didnt have enough power with this, then there were definately problems somewhere! Maybe there was a bad battery in the mix... who knows??? Unless we hear back from him, or the batteries show up, we may never know.
Hmmm. I would think that a 3000W RMS amp would pull more than 180A at full tilt. My math is this:
3000W / 13.8V / 80% (class D efficiency) = 270A
That would be almost a full 100A more than your figure.
Unless you are talking about extended play with the engine off, then either the battery was of poor quality, old, or installed/charged improperly. There should be no issues with a 3,000W daily system using a 70+ pound battery.
When I give recommendations on the boards, I try to give advice that might seem conservative. I would hate to tell a guy to go out and buy something smaller than he needs. At worst if my advice is overly conservative, he might have spent a little more than he needed to, but he will have plenty of power to spare for an upgrade down the road.
Maybe your point of view is that you shouldnt have any voltage drop when the system is under load? If the system is expected to be stable at all times, then the alternator will have to provide 100% of the current needed for the amplifier and the vehicle. For many, this is not possible. Even the most powerful alternators available can only produce around 160A at idle at best. This is not enough current to supply the amplifier at full load without a voltage drop, so it is impractical to expect zero voltage drop from a 3,000W system with an OEM alternator. You are very likely going to exceed the alternator's capabilities, and we have taken this into consideration with our battery recommendations. As you can imagine, there is no way a single recommendation can work for every system. There are always going to be variables in every installation. It is our job to try to educate the end user to choose the most efficient products to meet his or her needs. Maybe this isnt the same way that you and I would build our systems, but we have to start somewhere.
Again I would refer back to the math above. I don't think there are any electrical systems that can support 270A of current without major help, unless large voltage drops are acceptable.
You are certainly entitled to your own opinion... I am sure it is valuable to many of the forum readers. If they choose to follow your recommendation of more than 1 D1200, that is fine with me...
I would hate for people to think less of your products simply because your rating might be inflated for marketing purposes. I come from the school of thinking that you should give people a lower expectation and then wow them with a higher than anticipated product. That tends to make a life long customer for your company.
-
How big is that S3400 my battery compartment is not that big
LOL it is the same size as your G34 Yellow
-
with that said...i was running 1 powermaster D925 (which is smaller then the 1200) on a 3800rms system and had NO issues little to no voltage drop...so yes i do see the D1200 handling a 3000w system bein the that D925 is said to handle a 2500w i believe and i threw it in a 3800w system and it took it like a champ! yes i have a 200A alt MLA etc so i have a stout electrical.but still i see this being a user error..adding batts w a stock alt! first mistake, bumpin long periods of time! second mistake, and not letting alt and batts catch up after bumping! 3rd mistake, and the fourth mistake getting rid of powermaster batts....cuz of his mess up imo
Then why does your sig show that you have three D925s if one of them was enough?
-
This is not a hard concept to understand loop... Your alternator provides current to the electrical loads present in the car. If you add additional capacity to your system (ie two extra batteries) and your alternator can not provide enough current to supply the components of the electrical system plus the two batteries, then you are not helping your charging system out at all. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. For example, if you have a massive system, and you add massive amounts of batteries to the system to supply power to the amps, but only play the amps for short periods of time, then the alt will have time to re-coup what was drawn from the bank. In this scenario, if the system is played coninuously, then the alt will never catch up, and eventually the system will shut down, amps could blow from low voltage, or the alt could burn up from overheating. If this is how the system is going to be used, it is important to re-charge with a battery charger after long periods of play.
In the case above, there coud have been multiple reasons for failure including improper installation, improper charge on the batteries, faulty alternator and yes, even a bad battery in the group (Optima or XS Power). I would think that after making the purchase, and going through the trouble of installing them, he would have charged and checked them before returning them... or atleast talked to someone in tech support. I am still waiting to hear the verdict from the amp repair company... and would love to get my hands on these two batteries for personal testing...
Maybe you missed the part where he said that the batteries were charged. That changes this whole issue. And I will give you the fact that we cannot know for sure that the install was good, or that he for sure had a good charge on the batteries. But, we have to take some of what he says on face value in order to help him. I am just a little bit worried that two of those small batteries could possibly handle 3000W together, let alone just one pushing that same 3000W load. I have seen 3000W systems that run short on power with a group 31 sized battery. They usually have some voltage drops under heavy notes, even with good charging systems and all. It is just hard to believe that XS really thinks that a small battery like that will power 3000W. That is my main gripe here. Not that the quality is good or bad, just that the marketing seems a little inflated.
-
Hopefully my comments from the above post will clear it for the majority. For the situation you quoted above, the user had already installed and began charging/using the battery. At this point, there would be no need to remove the battery to re-charge.
I don't feel backed into a corner... that's what happens when you speak about what you know and nothing more. You wont find me in the computer section talking about processors, and floppy drives because I know nothing about them. Car audio on the other hand... I would like to think that my many years of dedication to it have taught me a thing or two
Don't hesitate to ask if there are still questions...
I wasn't trying to back you into a corner, but just wanted some clarity on the subject. It was just hard for me to understand why we rely on alts to charge batteries all the time, but then to have an expert say that we should not rely on alts to charge them was a little hard to understand. I apologize if my questions seemed like they were intended to question your authority in the industry, that was never my intention. I just don't feel the need to show as much respect as other fanboys seem to do. I would rather call it like it is and say BS when my detector goes off. Just so happened my BS detector was set off by the "don't charge your batteries with an alt" conversation. And then when Steve and Scotty jump in to back it up, at that point I have to assume that there are real reasons behind the statement. At that point I was intrigued by the reason behind the statement. I am never the type to take things on face value. I need the why as well.
And I also respect the fact that you have to give advice for all here and not for some. One guy will have a certain setup that will require a certain set of advice that may or may not apply to another guy. I get that. But when you are given an exact scenario like this thread offered, I think it deserves a specific answer, followed by a general statement to others. That way, we can see how you came to the suggestion that you gave.
I just don't want people in general thinking that alts are a poor charging option. True, they may not be the best, but they get the job done. And for the guy out there that does not have $400 to spend on a charger, his alt will most likely get the job done. Especially if it is less than half a volt low out of the box new product.
-
do anyone know how to wire the step down module ?
LOL, it is so simple. There is a single input wire (16V) and two outputs (2.4V and 3.6V stepdown). PM says to use the 3.6V output when using it with an alternator, but it all depends on your alt voltage. Basically you take your alt voltage minus the 2.4V or 3.6V, depending on the output you choose, and that will give you your reduced 12V charge voltage.
Example:
Your 16V alt charge rate is 19.2V
You use the 3.6V stepdown output
Your 12V system will see 15.6V
Now if you used the 2.4V stepdown output in the same system, your 12V system would see 16.8V. That would be too high for most cases.
If you need more than one stepdown, you simply wire them in parallel.
-
i will be useing a 12v batt in front and 2 16 v batt in the back so how much stepdown box do i need ?
Well you can simply add up the fuse values for all of your 12V electrical and take a sum of that divided by 25 and that should tell you how many stepdown boxes you will need. Chances are you would be better off with one of these alternatives:
1) Stick to 12V
2) Keep your 12V alt and add a second 16V alt
3) Forget the 12V limitations and push all 16V through your cars 12V side!
(just kidding on #3)
-
Just to clarify, I have a 200 amp alt.
That is exactly my point. If your 200A alt cannot handle charging 2 batteries, then someone needs to start making better alts, and/or we need to quit running more than 50A of audio current on them.
-
Happens all the time. Ask anyone in the alt business. One of the main reasons alts die is from a weak or bad battery. Many times customers will buy a new alt after it goes bad and kill a brand new one because the battery was the original problem to begin with. Sometimes guys will buy a big alt to charge a big bank of batts... sure fire way to kill a brand new alt is to throw it on a big bank of batts that are dead. The alt builds heat (epecially at idle) and can melt the stator just like a subwoofer coil that has been overdriven.
Hmm... Scottie, I did some more research and have found that you have given other advice on a similar issue on another board. Here is a quote:
http://audioforum.termpro.com/topic/22/4999.html#000012
im using d2700.i havent charge it yet"fresh from the box,should i charge it first?".as for now im very satisfied and im seeing 12.4 and up from the amp input.stock alt..
If you've already installed it, I wouldnt worry about charging it with a charger. The alternator should do a good job as long as it is sufficient for the job.
--------------------
Scottie Johnson
Sound Pressure Technologies
So after reading your posts, I am confused if you really think that an alt is a safe charging method or not? I think most of us here want a real sound answer on this subject. I know this probably looks like I am trying to back you in a corner, I truly am not. I just want to get to the bottom of this issue once and for all. I know that you have been in this industry for years. I remember back before you joined PM, when you ran Optima batteries. I trust your advice.
-
Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm far from knowledgeable, but here's my understanding:
The battery is supposed to supplement the alt. It isn't meant to completely power your car and audio system. That's why when people plan out systems with battery banks, the factor in the batt's draw. Batteries can only store power from the alt to use at a "better" time. They don't make power. So if the batteries are low, and can't get a charge...bad stuff happens.
That is how I understand it as well. Scottie said that he should not have returned 2 good batteries, which would imply that the batteries were not at fault and were providing proper power to the amps. The OP said they were maintaining a full charge, so unless that is wrong, I stand behind my statements.
If he had 2 D1200 that were maintaining a charge as he said, and XS says they are rated to supplement 3000W RMS each battery (6000W RMS total), and Scottie insists that they were good batteries, he was only running around 3000W RMS total, how else could this have happened? Twice?
-
The PM/XS 16V stepdown box is what you will need. However, this device can handle 25A continuous/50A max, so if you are drawing more than that on your 12V side, you will need more than one. You will need one stepdown box per 25A of continuous 12V power your vehicle uses. This includes all of the stock onboard 12V electrical.
.gif){kind=small}
How To: Solder Large Gauge Wire.
in Electrical-battery- Alternators- Wiring
Posted
Sounds like you need some flux. The flux is a gooey paste that you coat your wire and ring with, basically anywhere you want the solder to flow to, and it helps make the solder flow into all the voids in the connection. Also remember that the solder follows heat. So if you heat a general area, the solder will flow there. The shrink tube should be a little big before you shrink it. You need to heat it up after it is placed over the wire and terminal. You can use a heat gun or a light flame. Too hot will melt it and ruin it. You just want enough heat to shrink it tight.