loopkiller

Sounds like you need some flux. The flux is a gooey paste that you coat your wire and ring with, basically anywhere you want the solder to flow to, and it helps make the solder flow into all the voids in the connection. Also remember that the solder follows heat. So if you heat a general area, the solder will flow there. The shrink tube should be a little big before you shrink it. You need to heat it up after it is placed over the wire and terminal. You can use a heat gun or a light flame. Too hot will melt it and ruin it. You just want enough heat to shrink it tight.

Any chance the OP received word back on that amp yet?

I see your point on the collision angle, but I doubt the type of soldering that was shown in the OP would not break any easier vs a standard crimp. I guess we just disagree about that. As far as what is a better electrical connection, obviously a proper crimps is best, but a crimp alone will quickly corrode, leaving you with a poor electrical connection. The soldered connection is not measurably less of an electronic connection in the realm of car audio. Maybe in a scientific lab, you could run test to show that as fact, but it will not hurt your burps or make you sub pound harder. It just makes more sense to give up the minimal electrical loss for the gain in wire protection.

I have done the research based on what other competitors have said from their own usage. Since I am not personally a competitor, I do rely on what others say around the forums. I will admit that because of that, my stance is not as solid as yours. I will concede there. See here is the rub, your wattage chart is so vague that it is left open for interpretation. If it was more specific, your customers would be more able to discern the info given. So if your chart had told me that the D925 can support 2500W, but only when I have a 300A alt, playing Yanni, and that 2500W is a peak watts, not RMS, then I could buy it. But there is not a single situation where I could imagine that a D925 that weighs under 27 pounds could power a ZX2500.1 full tilt on bass heavy music and not be well below operating voltage. And it is not the fault of the D925. I am sure that is a great product per pound when compared to other brands. It is just that it is woefully undersized for the application. A D3100 I am sure would handle that application and then some. So, again, I don't take issue with your companies products or their quality. It is just the ratings. Now Scotty, tell me what CAs have to do with car audio? I will never defend the inflated specs of the battery industry. They all do it. Not to mention that CA and CCA are all pretty much useless today, even outside of car audio. Today's cars can start with very minimal cranking power. I know you guys do racing stuff, so I am sure that matters there, but I do not have a clue about race cars. Oh, and since PM took down the link for the lawsuit, I have not seen anything else regarding that case. Did you guys win against Kinetik too? I know that you settled with some of the other companies. If it was a hush hush thing, I understand that you can't talk about it. I guess I am just looking at it in a different way than you are, because everything you just said seems to strengthen my point, at least IMO. The fact that your product that Ed is using is very close to the Kinetik product in price, weight, and performance is exactly my point. Again, I want to reiterate this one point, I don't think your product is inferior to the Kinetik brand. I would assume if we compared one of the Kinetik batteries that weighed the same, it would be a better apples to apples, but I am not even interested in doing that. My only point here is this: Since both situations for Ed were very close in most cases, you could assume that the three HC2400 and the eight D925 would be relatively close in performance ratings. They are not even close. And it is not like there is a minor difference in ratings. Each D925 is rated higher than each HC2400, yet it took eight of the D925 to surpass the performance of three HC2400. That seems so easy to comprehend. Maybe you still think the Kinetik ratings are invalid since you still hold that your ratings are not flawed. Maybe you are thinking that the Kinetik ratings are too low? I am sorry if you see it as bashing because that really is not my intent at all. I just wanted some clarification on the ratings so I could help people who are looking for good batteries. I just want to give sound advice is all. Yes I will hide behind my computer. What difference would it make if you knew my name? And it is not like I am hiding it from you per se, I just feel that there are a lot of people who read these forums and I would prefer that some of these nut jobs not know where to find me. I do not see you as a threat, but I have seen some crazy mofos on these forums and I would rather feel safer sleeping at night knowing my identity is protected. I would never put my self out there like Steve has. I would never put my family in that position. I don't want people coming to my house looking for my system or what have you. Ok, so I guess you have regressed to the position of the typical forum bully by posting fail pics. I would have hoped you would have kept this more professional than that. Since you are representing a large company, I would have expected better.

I was using Ed's experience with the products as an example of my conclusions of your marketing. It is not Malibu vs Vette as you would like it to be. It is more like apples to apples, or Red Delicious vs Granny Smith. It is clear from the Ed example that the D925 is not capable of handling the 2500W that your marketing insists. Now maybe your marketing is referring to 2500W peak and not RMS. Maybe it is under strict circumstances. But none of that is apparent from your marketing info anywhere. I sure have never seen you clear up the misconceptions. I doubt you ever will. The reason why I think I have a bone to pick with your marketing in general is because it was PowerMaster who claimed that Kinetik over-rated their products, when in fact, Ed's example shows the exact opposite. Not only did the Kinetik's provide more power than their ratings, but the XS units are falling well short of their respective ratings. So unless you want to go further down that path and get into a pissing match, I am done with it. As for helping you sell more products, that is never my intention. But I may have done so inadvertently in the past. I know that I have recommended the D3400 and the D3100 many times. I think they are very good products and worthy of buying. I think that if a person can find a good value for the XS brand, they are reliable products. I will continue to recommend them on that basis. What I will not do, is recommend them based on the marketing info you give. And for the record, I bash the hell out of Batcap, they suck. I have never bashed your products. I have only pointed out the errors of your marketing. I see a difference there. As for who I am, if I wanted my name known, I would have said so. But I can assure you, you do not know me. I am not anything more than your average car audio enthusiast that happens to like to contribute the boards. So what you are saying is that the three HC2400s rated at 7200W were 1.2db less than the eight D925s rated at 20,000W. That is my point, thanks for helping.

Wow Scottie, I wish I had all those things to brag about, but to be brutally honest, I am just your average guy who loves car audio and has too much time on my hands. I don't hold any championships, degrees, or awards. None. I have never competed. I don't have any awards, at least not since I won my Pinewood Derby race as an 8 year old Cub Scout. What I do know is that people come here for your extensive knowledge because we all know very well that you are one of the best in the business. I have never dissed you as a person of knowledge. I am not riding your nuts or anything, but anyone who knows car audio knows about Scotty Johnson. You have my respect there. Now as far as your business is concerned, I do take issue with some of your product ratings. I do see them as being inflated. I like to help the newcomers to the sport on the forums because it is the easiest way to contribute and well as the best place for them to get the info they need. It just rubs me the wrong way when the info on your site contradicts what people like me suggest. It is not like I want to be right to spite you, it just seems awfully strange that the XS ratings are much higher than comparable products from your competition. I personally have a Kinetik in my car and it works great for me. I have recommended your products in the past as well. I also think that Stinger/Odyssey/Hawker/Deka all have a very good product as well. I usually tell people to find one that meets your budget and go with that. So it is not like I have something against you or your company (or it's products) per se. It is your marketing that I take fault with. I think that has become increasingly apparent. If and when my Kinetik does die, I would highly consider buying an XS unit as a replacement. I would give it the same chance at my business as any of the other brands I mentioned above. I would buy the one I thought was the best value. If that ended up being the XS, I would pull the trigger for sure. Hope you don't take most posts all that seriously...

OK Ed, now I did a little snooping into some of your past posts on some of the other forums and saw that you used to use the Kinetik batteries. You used to run the same setup with three HC2400 batteries. You said in previous posts that even under a very heavy and long load you would never drop below 12.0V with the Kinetik setup. Here are the posts where I found this info. I have cut out some of the unimportant parts, but the links to the full posts are here as well, in case you are worried about being taken out of context. Quote Link Quote Link Quote LinkOk, so now we have a decent heads up comparison to the two different batteries that you have ran. Let's look at the specs provided for each of these batteries: Kinetik HC2400 Rated for 2400W 13in x 6.7in x 8.2in 69 lbs XS D925 Rated for 2500W 6.5in x 6.93in x 4.92in 23.37 lbs Now since you had only three of the HC2400s and they are rated for 2400W each, then they should only be rated to handle about 7200W, which is much less than your 12kW system, yet they held up pretty well. But, with the eight D925s, which are rated for 2500W each, or a total of 20,000W, you don't seem to make much gains, if any. So I guess one could assume that the Kinetik batteries are under-rated and the XS is over-rated. Would you agree? And then there is this rating that you gave above saying that your amp pulls a max of 916A and that you measured that to be sure. Well let's do some simple math here. I will use 13.0V for these arguments, even though you end up dropping below that at the end of the burp. 916A x 13.0V = 11,908W (before amp efficiency is figured) x 90% = 10717W Now I think this would confirm your previous statement that you make over the 10kW the amp is rated for, assuming that your 90% efficiency rating holds true, even at full tilt. But, just for the sake of argument, let's take a look at that same math with a more realistic amp efficiency of 70%. 916A x 13.0V = 11,908W (before amp efficiency is figured) x 70% = 8335.6W This is more likely the case. Now since Hifonics rates your amp at 10kw @ 14.4V and they give a fuse rating of 1000A. 1000A x 14.4V = 14,400W 10,000W / 14,400W = 69.4% So I would assume that Hifonics would expect about a 70% efficiency from this particular amp, kind of like I suggested before. So under this new math, we can assume that you are making about 8300W from eight 2500W batteries.

Wow they do 90% at full rated power? That is some cool stuff. I always thought that amps would become much less efficient at full rated power. From what I had heard in the past is that they usually drop 10% to 20% in efficiency under full load vs rated efficiency at low power draw. Reason being that they make much more heat as a by product under full load and that shows in the amp efficiency.

Wow! That is one hell of an efficient amp! 1200A x 12.5V = 15kw 12kW / 15kw = 80% efficiency under full load That is kind of hard to believe... wow. Not to mention that the stock alt is doing what, 100A max? So that puts the battery draws at 1100A total, or about 140A per battery. So those small D925 only drop to 12.5V under a 140A load? That is pretty amazing stuff.

Hmm, I will take your word for it. So, anyways, I like the build and I think it looks really nice with the lighting. How much amperage are you drawing on the DC side when pushing 12kW? What type of alts do you have? It just seems like those batteries should drop further than 12.5V under a 1300A load.

If you have an RMS meter, then why multiply by .707 again? You might be right, but from what I understood is that you should already have an RMS value before multiplying it. I thought you only did that with peak values?

And just how are you measuring the output to know that you are getting 12kW out of it?

You must be running a 16v charge to them then? I know those amps are only rated up to 10kw @ 14.4v. Since the D925 is a 12V battery, you must have one hell of a 16V alt powering that amp to make 12kw. Not sure how else you would get 12kw out of a 12V battery bank.

Nice install Ed, but why so many batteries? I see 8 of the D925, but you mention that you need more? Might want to think about a bigger battery. IIRC that amp makes about 10kW and each of those D925 are rated for 2kw each, so the 8 you have already should power 16kW... right? EDIT: Oops, the D925 is rated for 2500W here, so that would be enough to power 20kW, or two of those amps?

I guess we should question how he knew they were charged instead of assuming that they were not charged then. I assumed he was correct when he said they were fully charged. You seemed to have assumed they must not have been charged. Difference of opinion. I agree. My first call would have been the help line or my supplier. Hmmm. I would think that a 3000W RMS amp would pull more than 180A at full tilt. My math is this: 3000W / 13.8V / 80% (class D efficiency) = 270A That would be almost a full 100A more than your figure. When I give recommendations on the boards, I try to give advice that might seem conservative. I would hate to tell a guy to go out and buy something smaller than he needs. At worst if my advice is overly conservative, he might have spent a little more than he needed to, but he will have plenty of power to spare for an upgrade down the road. Again I would refer back to the math above. I don't think there are any electrical systems that can support 270A of current without major help, unless large voltage drops are acceptable. I would hate for people to think less of your products simply because your rating might be inflated for marketing purposes. I come from the school of thinking that you should give people a lower expectation and then wow them with a higher than anticipated product. That tends to make a life long customer for your company.

LOL it is the same size as your G34 Yellow

Then why does your sig show that you have three D925s if one of them was enough?

Maybe you missed the part where he said that the batteries were charged. That changes this whole issue. And I will give you the fact that we cannot know for sure that the install was good, or that he for sure had a good charge on the batteries. But, we have to take some of what he says on face value in order to help him. I am just a little bit worried that two of those small batteries could possibly handle 3000W together, let alone just one pushing that same 3000W load. I have seen 3000W systems that run short on power with a group 31 sized battery. They usually have some voltage drops under heavy notes, even with good charging systems and all. It is just hard to believe that XS really thinks that a small battery like that will power 3000W. That is my main gripe here. Not that the quality is good or bad, just that the marketing seems a little inflated.

I wasn't trying to back you into a corner, but just wanted some clarity on the subject. It was just hard for me to understand why we rely on alts to charge batteries all the time, but then to have an expert say that we should not rely on alts to charge them was a little hard to understand. I apologize if my questions seemed like they were intended to question your authority in the industry, that was never my intention. I just don't feel the need to show as much respect as other fanboys seem to do. I would rather call it like it is and say BS when my detector goes off. Just so happened my BS detector was set off by the "don't charge your batteries with an alt" conversation. And then when Steve and Scotty jump in to back it up, at that point I have to assume that there are real reasons behind the statement. At that point I was intrigued by the reason behind the statement. I am never the type to take things on face value. I need the why as well. And I also respect the fact that you have to give advice for all here and not for some. One guy will have a certain setup that will require a certain set of advice that may or may not apply to another guy. I get that. But when you are given an exact scenario like this thread offered, I think it deserves a specific answer, followed by a general statement to others. That way, we can see how you came to the suggestion that you gave. I just don't want people in general thinking that alts are a poor charging option. True, they may not be the best, but they get the job done. And for the guy out there that does not have $400 to spend on a charger, his alt will most likely get the job done. Especially if it is less than half a volt low out of the box new product.

LOL, it is so simple. There is a single input wire (16V) and two outputs (2.4V and 3.6V stepdown). PM says to use the 3.6V output when using it with an alternator, but it all depends on your alt voltage. Basically you take your alt voltage minus the 2.4V or 3.6V, depending on the output you choose, and that will give you your reduced 12V charge voltage. Example: Your 16V alt charge rate is 19.2V You use the 3.6V stepdown output Your 12V system will see 15.6V Now if you used the 2.4V stepdown output in the same system, your 12V system would see 16.8V. That would be too high for most cases. If you need more than one stepdown, you simply wire them in parallel.

Well you can simply add up the fuse values for all of your 12V electrical and take a sum of that divided by 25 and that should tell you how many stepdown boxes you will need. Chances are you would be better off with one of these alternatives: 1) Stick to 12V 2) Keep your 12V alt and add a second 16V alt 3) Forget the 12V limitations and push all 16V through your cars 12V side! (just kidding on #3)

That is exactly my point. If your 200A alt cannot handle charging 2 batteries, then someone needs to start making better alts, and/or we need to quit running more than 50A of audio current on them.

Hmm... Scottie, I did some more research and have found that you have given other advice on a similar issue on another board. Here is a quote: http://audioforum.termpro.com/topic/22/4999.html#000012 So after reading your posts, I am confused if you really think that an alt is a safe charging method or not? I think most of us here want a real sound answer on this subject. I know this probably looks like I am trying to back you in a corner, I truly am not. I just want to get to the bottom of this issue once and for all. I know that you have been in this industry for years. I remember back before you joined PM, when you ran Optima batteries. I trust your advice.

That is how I understand it as well. Scottie said that he should not have returned 2 good batteries, which would imply that the batteries were not at fault and were providing proper power to the amps. The OP said they were maintaining a full charge, so unless that is wrong, I stand behind my statements. If he had 2 D1200 that were maintaining a charge as he said, and XS says they are rated to supplement 3000W RMS each battery (6000W RMS total), and Scottie insists that they were good batteries, he was only running around 3000W RMS total, how else could this have happened? Twice?

The PM/XS 16V stepdown box is what you will need. However, this device can handle 25A continuous/50A max, so if you are drawing more than that on your 12V side, you will need more than one. You will need one stepdown box per 25A of continuous 12V power your vehicle uses. This includes all of the stock onboard 12V electrical.