scottiej
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Posts posted by scottiej
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I wasn't trying to back you into a corner, but just wanted some clarity on the subject. It was just hard for me to understand why we rely on alts to charge batteries all the time, but then to have an expert say that we should not rely on alts to charge them was a little hard to understand. I apologize if my questions seemed like they were intended to question your authority in the industry, that was never my intention. I just don't feel the need to show as much respect as other fanboys seem to do. I would rather call it like it is and say BS when my detector goes off. Just so happened my BS detector was set off by the "don't charge your batteries with an alt" conversation. And then when Steve and Scotty jump in to back it up, at that point I have to assume that there are real reasons behind the statement. At that point I was intrigued by the reason behind the statement. I am never the type to take things on face value. I need the why as well.
And I also respect the fact that you have to give advice for all here and not for some. One guy will have a certain setup that will require a certain set of advice that may or may not apply to another guy. I get that. But when you are given an exact scenario like this thread offered, I think it deserves a specific answer, followed by a general statement to others. That way, we can see how you came to the suggestion that you gave.
I just don't want people in general thinking that alts are a poor charging option. True, they may not be the best, but they get the job done. And for the guy out there that does not have $400 to spend on a charger, his alt will most likely get the job done. Especially if it is less than half a volt low out of the box new product.
It's cool... I'm the same way. If something's not clear, I wan't to get it clear in my head. It's the only way to learn
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Some good info and feedback in this post! Thanks guys for helping with all the tech info, etc.
My #1 recommendation is to run dual alternators. We actually have a way where two of our new XS Power alternators can be used to allow you to toggle back and forth between 12 and 16V. This way you can dedicate all the alternator power to the sytem if you want, and can toggle back to 12V when you're finished jamming!
The stepdowns are a good option when you dont have room for a secondary alt, or if you just need extra room up front for more 16V batteries. But as mentioned, it typically takes two modules to dissipate enough heat for daily driving.
We never recommend the use of 3 post batteries, because just as was mentioned above, the battery will become imbalanced internally causing premature failure at the least. More severe problems could be severe swelling or case rupture which can be very dangerous.
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Can / how do people do the MLA modules with them?
Many people do... although I do not agree with sustained exposure to 15+V to any sealed 12V battery.
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That is exactly my point. If your 200A alt cannot handle charging 2 batteries, then someone needs to start making better alts, and/or we need to quit running more than 50A of audio current on them.
Agreed
I'm still not going to recommend it though
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Hmm... Scottie, I did some more research and have found that you have given other advice on a similar issue on another board. Here is a quote:
http://audioforum.termpro.com/topic/22/4999.html#000012
So after reading your posts, I am confused if you really think that an alt is a safe charging method or not? I think most of us here want a real sound answer on this subject. I know this probably looks like I am trying to back you in a corner, I truly am not. I just want to get to the bottom of this issue once and for all. I know that you have been in this industry for years. I remember back before you joined PM, when you ran Optima batteries. I trust your advice.
Hopefully my comments from the above post will clear it for the majority. For the situation you quoted above, the user had already installed and began charging/using the battery. At this point, there would be no need to remove the battery to re-charge.
I don't feel backed into a corner... that's what happens when you speak about what you know and nothing more. You wont find me in the computer section talking about processors, and floppy drives because I know nothing about them. Car audio on the other hand... I would like to think that my many years of dedication to it have taught me a thing or two
Don't hesitate to ask if there are still questions...
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I could see you point about a battery that had shorted cells or some other major defect, but simply low charged batteries out of the box should not draw more power than the alt would be required to make when the audio is pumping. Let's take this guys specific example. He had a D3100 @ 12.74v and a D3400 @ 12.51v out of the box. How many amps of current would you expect to see these two batteries draw in order to charge? I would bet my left nut (right one is no good) that it would be less than 50A of draw to charge them. So what you are saying is that this guy would burn up his alt by pulling 50A to charge these? If that is true, then he has one POS alt and should NEVER install an audio system in that vehicle.
Agree?
A new, but low battery (below 12.5V) can require a large amount of current to pull the voltage up to 14+V. The size of the battery(s) will determine exactly how much. For example, with the batteries you have mentioned above, at a 25A charge rate I would estimate the charge time to be around 30min to 14.4V. However, this is not how an alternator works. When you install a new battery in a car and crank the engine, the alternator regulator wants to bring the battery up to the alternator's set point (usually 14.4V). The output of the alternator will depend on the temperature and rpm's of the engine. For a stock honda, I would estimate the output at idle to be around 60A. In this same scenario, with 60A it should take less than 10 min to bring the batteries up to 14.4. This should not kill the alternator, but that does not mean it will not happen. I've seen alternator failure in a matter of minutes depending on the load, temp, and rpm (cooling available to the alternator). If the alternator's capacity is 60A at idle, and your draw is above 60A, heat will build very quickly, and at idle it is difficult for the alternator to spin quickly enough to cool. To add to this, if you install these two batteries, and immediately begin jamming on the system, you are very likely to exceed the alternator's capacity to the point where it may never catch up and will certainly die. And yet, it is completely possible, that the alternator could be much smaller, but still completely charge the batteries mentioned with no problems. Every scenario is different, and no single experience is going to be true for everyone. For this reason, I suggest fully charging new batteries before installation, and I think you will find that all other alternator manufacturers recommend the same. If a charger is not available, and the voltage is above 12.6V, typically it will be no problem to plug and play
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Ramen is right... if after 10 hours the battery is not fully charged the charger will shut down in case there is a problem with the battery or connection. Just re-start it and off you go!
When charging the SPV70 you will always want to be in the AGM mode @ 25A.
Good luck!
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That is how I understand it as well. Scottie said that he should not have returned 2 good batteries, which would imply that the batteries were not at fault and were providing proper power to the amps. The OP said they were maintaining a full charge, so unless that is wrong, I stand behind my statements.
If he had 2 D1200 that were maintaining a charge as he said, and XS says they are rated to supplement 3000W RMS each battery (6000W RMS total), and Scottie insists that they were good batteries, he was only running around 3000W RMS total, how else could this have happened? Twice?
This is not a hard concept to understand loop... Your alternator provides current to the electrical loads present in the car. If you add additional capacity to your system (ie two extra batteries) and your alternator can not provide enough current to supply the components of the electrical system plus the two batteries, then you are not helping your charging system out at all. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. For example, if you have a massive system, and you add massive amounts of batteries to the system to supply power to the amps, but only play the amps for short periods of time, then the alt will have time to re-coup what was drawn from the bank. In this scenario, if the system is played coninuously, then the alt will never catch up, and eventually the system will shut down, amps could blow from low voltage, or the alt could burn up from overheating. If this is how the system is going to be used, it is important to re-charge with a battery charger after long periods of play.
In the case above, there coud have been multiple reasons for failure including improper installation, improper charge on the batteries, faulty alternator and yes, even a bad battery in the group (Optima or XS Power). I would think that after making the purchase, and going through the trouble of installing them, he would have charged and checked them before returning them... or atleast talked to someone in tech support. I am still waiting to hear the verdict from the amp repair company... and would love to get my hands on these two batteries for personal testing...
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I would recommend an S3400 up front, and a D925 in the back. Check out the chart below for more info:
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I guess I can go up to $200,
anyways this is what I am looking at.
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/a...&questions=[{Type0%3D[com.autozone.diy.valueobject.NavigationItem%407d0733%2C+com.autozone.diy.valueobject.NavigationItem%4063dbe3]}]
They have that one in stock but have to order a yellowtop.
Depending on where you live you may be able to pick up an S1200 locally for around $200
www.xspowerbatteries.com
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i agree...
ntm, doesnt the alt charge the battery with the least path of resistance 1st? Your alt might have been charging the red top 1st... and if you didn't let your car run for a while, or doing something when you had to drive around for like a 1/2 hr ish b4 bumpin your music (so your alt can charge ur front, and some of you back batts), so what ever power was in the D1200's when you 1st bought em may have be depleted if you just installed them, and started bumoin hard, w/o charging em at all
thats what im thinkin, but i could be wrong...
im no professional, i just stayed at a holiday inn last night
haha! Yes, it very well could be that by adding additional batteries you put additional strain on your alternator and can no longer hold adequate voltage. A simple check with a multimeter would have revealed the answer instead of taking back two perfectly good batteries to replace them with less power in the end....
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how many volt can u run up to in the power master battery?
The 12V models should not be charged above 14.9V, the 16V models should nto be charged above 19.2V
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Wow, this thread is still going. Needless to say I charged them before I installed them. Currently resting at just under 13volts in my car. I was on my way home to my parents to work on my setup when I hit a deer.
Here's a shot of my nearly completed wall:
And my ugly trunk:
Can't drive around at night with my like this, so I haven't gotten to listen to my setup much yet.
Just glad the deer didn't hit the passenger side.Sweet! Sorry to hear you hit a deer though!
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I don't get that at all. I have never seen a battery draw that much current that it would "over-work" the alt.
Happens all the time. Ask anyone in the alt business. One of the main reasons alts die is from a weak or bad battery. Many times customers will buy a new alt after it goes bad and kill a brand new one because the battery was the original problem to begin with. Sometimes guys will buy a big alt to charge a big bank of batts... sure fire way to kill a brand new alt is to throw it on a big bank of batts that are dead. The alt builds heat (epecially at idle) and can melt the stator just like a subwoofer coil that has been overdriven.
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ya thats wat im thinkin they were charged up ..it only took my t30001 2 times,and a us amp ax3200 to get burnt up b4 i figured this sh*t out looks like im send my amp back to arc again... i heard these batts were good i just took em back and bought one big odessy batt..this sucks
Unless there was something wrong with the installation, there is no way adding 2 D1200's to your installation would be directly responsible for your amplifiers to blow. When you send the amps back to arc ask them what caused the failure. I am anxious to hear a professional's opinion of what caused the amp to fail.
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Ok just got my intellicharger from MECHMAN and I have a few questions as to how to use it, I read though the manual, but I dont really find that too helpful when figuring out things.
First
In my car now, I have a Optima Red Top up front and a Deka Intimidator 9A31 in the rear. My normal charge rate from my stinger volt meter says 14.5-14.6 at the amps. Now I went to use my intellicharger to let the batteries get a little charged, So I put them on AGM, 12volt, and set it at the 15 amp setting. Now I only let them sit on this for about 3 and a half hours, It didnt make it to the full charge or float stage because I Had to leave work. I had a DMM on the battery and it was reading 14.2 volts while the car was off charging.
When I went to start my car, my voltage is now lower, I rest at around 14.2-14.4 if im lucky. I never really see 14.5 anymore, let alone 14.6. I was wondering why it did this?
Second
How do I know what type of charge to throw on my batteries? 2A 15A of 25A? The manual never really said how to determine this
Third
I have 4 Stinger SPV70s on their way here and I want to charge them each before putting them in my car, how would I go about doing this to give them each a nice good charge up. What settings etc, time frame, amount of charges do I need?
Any help at all would be awesome!
Thanks!
The amperage settings are for small, medium and large size batteries. When charging multiple batteries you will always want to use the 25A setting unless you are charging two small batteries like the D680. Also, when charging AGM batteries you will need to always use the AGM low setting. Charging any higher could cause damage or shortened life to the battery. For your SPV70's you will want to use the 25A mode for charging seperate or together.
The reason your alternator is not reading as high after a full charge on the 1005 is because the batteries are already fully charged and the alternator does not have to regulate the voltage as high to maintain the voltage of the batteries. You will notice that the resting voltage (8 hours after charging) will be higher after using the charger instead of the alternator.
Hope this helps!
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I am a noob so don't hit me for asking but how can the s1000 burp as good if it is 650-700 amps less than a d1000?
If every tenth matters then the D1000 would be the best choice, but many users that have used both have not been able to tell much of a difference if any between the two.
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How is one 3 step intelligent charger better than another? I see the powermaster does 16 volt batteries too but if you never plan on doing 16 volts why spend $299?
Aside from the specific charging algorithim the 1005 uses to best charge our line of AGM batteries, it also has additional settings to properly charge flooded, gel and other types of AGM batteries including Optimas and many others. In addition to the three voltage level options, it can also charge in three different amperage modes for charger small, medium and large sized batteries or banks. The 1005 can also be paralleled together to charge large banks of batteries more quickly. Of course, it does all this for 16v batteries too
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I was told by 2 other companies that the battery that is closer to the amplifiers gets used more than the battery in the engine compartment. Wouldn't that hurt the smaller battery in back if I went with a d680? How do they come up with these names like 680? Odyssey has a pc680 and XS has a D680, is it about the size of the battery? If so does that make a D3100 bigger or more powerful than a PC2150?
No, the D680 would be fine in the back, just make sure your wiring from the front to the back is adequate. Our 680's, 925's, and 1200's are the same size as the Odyssey models. For us, the number indicates the size of the battery. The larger models like the 5100 up through the 3100 indicate the group size of the battery. The 2150 and the 3100 are the same size, but many users have swapped out 2150's for 3100's and noticed a nice difference in the performance of their systems.
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scottiej : i saw the regular 1000 on jc whiteny and few other sites...... thats why i was wondering.
but i appriciate everyones help
Anywhere it's shown as the old PN 1000, it's either a very old photo, or they have very old stock.
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What if I took out the 2x150 amplifier? I do not have the room to put a battery in the back + I am not so sure I want a battery sitting in the cab.
You could always add a D680 to the back... it is tiny and can fit almost anywhere... it would be great for instant discharge power for your amps too. (much better than a cap). Or, you could just go with the D3100 as the main battery. Either way will work great!
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I have a dodge dakota extended cab with a 170 amp high performance alternator with a 4x85 hifonics amp, 2x150 hifonics amp and a 1x2600 hifonics amp. 340 watts + 300 watts + 2600 watts = 3240 watts. Would the D2700 be good since it can put out 4000 watts as the primary battery or is that peak watts?
Actually the D2700 is good for up to 3,000W as the main battery. See the link below:
http://www.4xspower.com/caraudio.html
Since it is good for 4,000W as a supplemental battery, I would suggest using it as your rear battery until your stock one wears down, then replace that one with a new XS Power later on down the road.
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Need pics?
Absolutely!
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i already have it
If you have them, you might as well keep them. Your choice of 1 - D3400 and 2 - D3100 is a good one, but you could also use the D2700's in the rear and still have sufficient power and save a little money.
Just glad the deer didn't hit the passenger side.
D1200's
in XS Power Batteries / Chargers! (and other stuff too)
Posted · Edited by scottiej
Not from a technical standpoint it doesn't. Just because he said it was charged, does not give me any indication that it really was. There were no details or voltages provided in his post that would allow me to assume that, yes, the battery really was fully and properly charged.
In my many years of help and support to spl competitors and customers, if you assume that who you are talking to knows what they are talking about you can waste a lot of valuable time troubleshooting the wrong thing if you dont have all the correct info from the beginning. This guy didn't even send an email or call in to the tech dept to try and figure out what was wrong with his charging system... he just convinced himself that it was the batteries and sent them back before even asking. Makes me wonder why he would even bother posting here after the fact???
Take a look at our wattage chart and explain why you think the D1200 could not provide supplementary power to a 3,000W amp when installed along with a primary battery?
It takes about 180A of current to supply a 3,000W amplifier to full output. Is it not possible that a stock battery paralleled with a D1200 in the back (right next to the amp) could provide 180A of current to the amplifier even taking the alternator out of the equation? Of course it can... and sure the state of the stock battery plays a big role, as does the alternator, and the installation, but I can tell you that the D1200 can provide the bulk of the 180A with no problem. Plus, he was using two D1200's... plus the stock location battery (from what I can tell a Redtop)... if he didnt have enough power with this, then there were definately problems somewhere! Maybe there was a bad battery in the mix... who knows??? Unless we hear back from him, or the batteries show up, we may never know.
Unless you are talking about extended play with the engine off, then either the battery was of poor quality, old, or installed/charged improperly. There should be no issues with a 3,000W daily system using a 70+ pound battery.
Maybe your point of view is that you shouldnt have any voltage drop when the system is under load? If the system is expected to be stable at all times, then the alternator will have to provide 100% of the current needed for the amplifier and the vehicle. For many, this is not possible. Even the most powerful alternators available can only produce around 160A at idle at best. This is not enough current to supply the amplifier at full load without a voltage drop, so it is impractical to expect zero voltage drop from a 3,000W system with an OEM alternator. You are very likely going to exceed the alternator's capabilities, and we have taken this into consideration with our battery recommendations. As you can imagine, there is no way a single recommendation can work for every system. There are always going to be variables in every installation. It is our job to try to educate the end user to choose the most efficient products to meet his or her needs. Maybe this isnt the same way that you and I would build our systems, but we have to start somewhere.
You are certainly entitled to your own opinion... I am sure it is valuable to many of the forum readers. If they choose to follow your recommendation of more than 1 D1200, that is fine with me...