TeamHT

Doesn't that work both ways? Opening your mind that is. A cost analysis silver vs copper is just common sense it appears, but copper vs aluminium and all of a sudden the price difference seems to be a hard fought battle, lol.

You're right, but guaranteed if I swapped from OFC to CCA and did see a difference that argument might not come up. I live in Alaska and all testing was done in the shop, with wiring from alt to battery, battery to bank, and bank to amp the only changed aspect. Those are a lot of factors to consider just because I swapped wire. Those factors could be considered even if nothing was changed. I simply measured voltage tithe bank at idle and under load full tilt and score legal. Back then I never would have assumed this debate would ever take place or that I would even participate in it or I would have done as much as possible.

True, but you're not considering all aspects. What happened differed from what paper said, but you're still believing that somehow my results are flawed. I'm not the only one, and there are 60s vehicle using CCA. Of course then the argument is they would get louder with OFC which we don't know. I like that someone theorized that when you reach a certain amount of runs, the conductivity is negligible.

Devils Advocate. What if the power you lost did NOT result in a score difference? Is it possible that there is another factor in your car that limited your score to what it was? But doesn't that further help the case for CCA? That the power lost did not result in a lower voltage or lower score...so does that mean any loss through CCA is negligible? That even though OFC is hands down a better conductor it doesn't matter much in the end of things? What's better for someone is definitely going to vary. I'm hoping to look at this from all angles. Good job on being the advocate

That's my point, you disregard ACTUAL EXPERIENCE in favor of something on paper. We know one to one, OFC is better. Not once has that been debated. But when I used CCA I experienced no drop in performance electronically or spl. You simply cannot disregard ACTUAL events simply because on paper it couldn't be. Actually doing something is a part of science too, why are you so focused on what you read instead of what you do? I'm not saying use both, I'm saying wire properly using OFC. Then wire the exact same setup properly using CCA. What difference will you see? Ignore what you see on paper, do it and then see what actually happens.

That is your statement every single time you try to argue science vs application, and it doesn't apply. Not in the slightest, even in your workout thread. The fact is, on paper we are shown that OFC wire to wire is better. So then you double a run of the CCA, come up cheaper with no performance loss...that is not "post hoc ergo propter hoc", that is actually a form of science called APPLICATION. Even the best scientific formulas have to be tested and applied, what good do they do on paper? If I switched from OFC to CCA and saved money but didn't drop a single volt or decibel from running OFC...how does your propter fit into that equation? Truth is, it doesn't. And ACTUALLY doing something has merits as well, you just would rather ignore it for something you see on paper but never do.

That's a good point but just look at 250' of OFC vs CCA, nope...I barely fuse and factor shipping to Alaska...the amount I saved was almost another 270 amp. I think 5 runs to 4 runs isn't a big difference but I'll try to do as much information gathering this time... But when I finish my install I'm doing two runs from DC 370XP to D3100, with 4 runs pos and 4 runs negative to the back bank of 5 XP2500, 6 pos 6 negative to the AQ20 all CCA. I'm interested to see how this fares and will add an extra run or two if I need to. SHCA if that matters...

The system was all coming out, I was (and did) going to rip everything out down to bare metal. My actual point was to prove using the CCA would show a decrease in performance and score...to my surprise it didn't. But I really wish people would stop taking it negatively if and when someone has a difference of opinion. I haven't seen anyone being disrespectful to Tony, but more and more it seems like once you disagree with someone or something you're an enemy of the state. A debate can be healthy for knowledge and users. In audio, there is a big difference between paper and application and it's good to see how these hammer out. Can't we just debate with offending people?

That's an install error. Anything can get ruined if and when used incorrectly, including OFC.

Don't remember, it was over two years ago...almost 3 years when I installed it

1 run off each alt (three Mechman 270s) to D3100 under the hood, four runs positive and four runs negative back to bank of 8 D3100s, one run to each RF T4000 (three of them). Voltage monitored at the bank 14.6 cold 14.5-4 warm in all knukonceptz 1/0 OFC. 1 run off each alt to D3100 under the hood, five runs positive and five runs negative to bank battery, two runs to each T4000 knukonceptz 1/0 CCA. All that's gone and right now just sitting on almost 300' of sky high CCA, 200' of it actually sitting in my room

You mean like...actual application? I'm really hoping this science you are talking about actually shows an install and not just formulas on paper. That's my whole point, you call it broscience but I call it actual experience. Same with your fitness thread, but you know...no need for your shameless plug

Looks like I have to get to a computer...its not playing on my phone...I hate when this happens

Do you think that is because in each case, both the OFC and CCA were sufficient to allow the amps to run at full potential, meaning that whatever the weak link in each individual system was, it wasn't the wire? Just an idea, I can't say I KNOW this to be true. That is my theory. That extra runs balances out the fact that copper is a better conductor, and if you wire properly with calculated draw you won't suffer from using a less conductive material. Every case is going to be different though so if people pay attention to that, no worries

Team bassick alpine on the forum also switched and had no change in his score. Maybe he'll chime in with exactly what he was using for equipment

No one is arguing the number. True the square root will always be 4, as the capability of OFC to CCA will always be bigger. But...that is only comparing one to one. We all know and agree OFC is better, but that advantage can easily be counterbalanced by an extra run of CCA. Some times, running a single run if OFC will be cheaper, and sometimes cheaper when running two of CCA. So I believe as long as you are wiring correctly for the draw you will see similar results. And if the results are similar (I know two other instances of my own where they were the same alpine being one) then as a consumer you look at the next factor...price. I agree, a civilized debate is healthy. Maybe some will change their mind and others will have a stronger understanding as why they believe as they do

I disagree as damplifier actually dampens and absorbs the energy to dispense where P&S only mass loads. It's the big difference there between the two, one actually functions while the other doesn't. Where as both CCA and OFC will conduct

Depends on how you're looking at it. If you're looking at strictly at amperage ability I don't see it as analogous as you can run multiple lines of CCA, not stuck between one wire of either. I think we all agree hands down, 1 wire to 1 wire OFC is best hands down. How you use the wire? I might take the 400hp engine in a 2,000 lb car over a 500hp engine in a 5,000 lb car

Who said anything like that? It was a pretty civil debate on both sides until people got offended. If anyone should have thought that...wouldn't that have been Tony? I don't understand the negative connotation...I really don't. I disagree with a point and simply gave reasons why I believe so. I'm sure most people know we're not being disrespectful because we're not. I have run both, so have experience with both. I'm tuned in for more of this debate

I wired calculating the draw. You're right though, but doesn't that mean wiring properly with CCA counterbalances the better conductivity of copper and still costs less...then isn't that something to factor in? I already said better is subjective. Maybe someone doesn't want to run multiple runs. They want one big run and don't care about price. Then I'll assume the biggest OFC they can find is the best for them. People should decide what is better for them. In my install I saw no performance loss at all but I did see a price difference.

You have no idea what the you're talking about. Please pm me instances of me bitching at noobs. Your statement was not, I think CCA is inferior to OFC...your statement was, "how dare you argue with the man named Tony! Humble yourselves and accept his words" of course I paraphrased a bit there. I've ran OFC and switched to CCA, so you can't even get that right. Who cares about knowing more than someone? Are you feeling insecure there? Because a level of intelligence has nothing to do with it. Maybe I'll say it slower for you because you're having trouble. I ran OFC wiring triple mechman 270s charging a total of 9 D3100s, on music full tilt on three RF T4000s powering three 15" BTLs and scored a legal 56.7 with voltage at 14.3. Swapped to CCA, same score at the same frequency, same voltage. Only difference was the price. So why should I pay an extra $500 for nothing? You say I should open my mind, have you opened yours? Have you swapped one from the other properly using both and seen a difference? If so, please share. But don't ever assume because we are debating something we are being disrespectful. And when in a debate with something like OFC vs CCA dkmt ever say, don't argue with tony just humble yourself. That shi cray And where am I l pissing and moaning because something is on the chopping block? Lol, you have a very skewed perception of events and it tickles me.

This is a great start to get some actual numbers. Sadly I won't rebuild with OFC just to change it to CCA, but maybe I'll be able to do some tests running from dual 370XPs to a bank in the bed and compare differences.

Sand in the vajayjay? I've proved what has worked for ME. And I've said that pretty often, and if you could get the same performance for less are you saying that that is not awesome? And when did I say have no place in the debate with no technical information? I'm saying to say we should shut up and humble ourselves people someone told us is about the dumbest thing ever said on this forum. I don't care if he's your friend, the truly humble thing to do would be to have an opinion, not a "he said so so I'll agree without researching or knowing ANYTHING about the subject matter". When did a debate about actual science vs application ever become taboo on this forum? When did we all of a sudden take offense to a difference in opinion? When did there become a rule where we can't test different ways of doing things? That's what you should really shake your head at. And now this IS cluttering the thread with things that doesn't have anything to do with the original post.

SRP365 obviously has no place in this debate. At least snow has an opinion and facts as to why he believes he does. SRP's is because someone told him so. I find it pretty pathetic that we have differing opinions and we need to "humble" ourselves. The only thing worse than someone working though something and being wrong is a person who accepts what he is told and has no idea why. That is pretty much the definition of fanboyism. Is tony one of the smartest on this forum? Yes, I'll venture to say so. So when he makes a statement and some of us question and provide our opinions as to why, I'm sure he's a big boy who knows how to debate his points. I've already stated and explained why the term better can be subjective. Different points to consider when you say what is better. And once again...not one person has said CCA is better than OFC. What has been said is you can and will get the same performance for less. So better for my wallet? Yes

That would equally include the reverse. I've swapped from OFC to CCA...has anyone here? How is the scientific aspect achieved if there are no tests either way? I've proved it to myself and in my setup and will continue to use CCA and recommend it to anyone curious. The people saying OFC is better probably have a bigger stake at proving it, not the other way around. If you have a draw of 400 amps...would there actually be a difference from two runs of OFC vs two runs of CCA? If you had 700 amps three vs three. There's one video out now comparing OFC to CCA and I think we all know exactly where that one stands. If I have achieved the same score (exact) but using CCA, where does the better OFC argument come in? That it took less wires to do so? Only evidence I have is what I've actually accomplished and albeit not good enough for others it's good enough for me.