Fish Chris

Have you guys noticed the add that intermittently pops up at the top of this page, that says, "Tired of big speakers" ??? Oh yea ! That's why I come to the SMD forums :-) No big speakers here :-) Doh ! LOL Anyway... Fish

Personally speaking, I prefer LOW lows too. I've always tuned my boxes to around 30 hz, and although I might have sacrificed a couple db's by not tuning higher, I gained some ultra lows "AND" more importantly, kept it musical. I've heard (I haven't actually experienced this, but just going by hear say) that while tuning at 38hz to 45 hz will give you really LOUD bass in that frequency range, it will sacrifice a flatter, more musical range of frequencies..... Or to put it another way, it will be more peaky / boomy. Anyway, not only has my experience shown that a 30 hz tuning works well for most 10"s and 12"s, this also happens to be what my subwoofer manufacturer recommends anyway, so 30hz it is for me :-) Peace, Fish

Just a totally subjective question. If you have never had an aftermarket car stereo, and you get your first actual subwoofer, a single 8" in the right enclosure, with the recommended power, you would be likely to say "It's SLAMMIN' NOW" !!! :-) On the other hand, if you are SM, you might think that a couple 15"s in the right enclosure, with a couple thousand watts ain't $#!+ ! Of course if it's "your system" it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks :-) If it hits hard enough for you, then it hits hard enough. Peace, Fish

You scratched what ? Okay well, I probably wouldn't have thought to mention it, but on a related subject, I scratched my sack, right before I opened this thread..... :-) Peace, Fish PS, Seriously though, cool truck ! :-)

Hey Toxic, well it's like this; It is a brand freaking new truck, and it would be a VERY scary thing, to start chopping on it. But if I could find somebody that could convince me, that they could do it, and make it look sweet, I'd probably do it. But of course, I can't afford a big fat chunk of cash do have it done, either. And I sure don't want to eff it up myself ! So that's my dillema. I'm still thinking 8"s in the rear door stock speaker spots, to start out with. So my imaging will suck below 400hz... Heck, I might even push down the upper range of the 8"s from 400hz, to 300hz, or even 250hz..... I can't imagine that you would hear a "lot" of directional sound below 250hz, anyway. Hmmmmm, Fish

Alright guys, see, here's what I'm talking about... The stock spot for the mids and tweets is great..... but look at all of the stupidness I have to deal with, in putting 8" mid-bass drivers below the mids :-( Now you see why I'm talking about doing away with the whole bottom 9" of my door panels ? I don't need no stinking junk traps.... But I do need a good spot for my mid-bass drivers. Oh hey jhmeg, I don't have the 8" drivers yet, but I already ordered these. Good reviews, cheap enough, and they are actually made for mid-bass.... not as 8" sub woofers: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cf...4663301#reviews What to do ? Fish

I was afraid you guys might say that.... But the fact is, I have no space whatsoever in my kick panels, and as far as pods in the doors, it might not be so bad if I just had some flat, blank areas on the bottom of my doors to work with.... But instead, I have these big ass map pockets, that run the full length of the door, and are about 9" tall. I guess I could remove the whole door panel, from 9" down. I'll try to post a photo so you can see what I'm dealing with. BTW PTcary, I think building pods would be the kind of thing that 1) if you had the right tools, and 2) had built a few of them already, might not be bad at all. But neither is the case for me :-( So you really think their is a "lot" of noticeable sound stage below 400hz ? Peace, Fish

{keeping in mind I'm leaning towards an SQ system} Okay, so I will be running a set of components in the stock speaker spots in the front doors of my F150.... tweets up high, mids about 10" below that. Then I will be running a pair of 8" mid-bass drivers, which I had "really wanted" to place right below the mids, in the bottom of the front doors, in custom pods. The problem is, 1) I've never built pods, 2) I can't afford to have them custom built for me. So last night I got to thinking 'at least for starters' how much do you think it would hurt my SQ (or should I say, my stereo imaging) to put my 8" mid-bass drivers in the stock spots in my rear doors ? Even if I had to surface mount them, and lift them 1" or 1 1/2", I'm sure they would easily fit. Keep in mind, I will probably be grabbing a pretty narrow range of frequencies with those anyway. Maybe say 80hz to 350hz- 500hz. Oh, and also keep in mind, my rear seats are already yanked out. This stereo is all for the driver.... and on rare occasions, a passenger. Another nice thing about doing it this way, is that it will be my rear stereo channels which control those anyway, so this should help to make adjustments a bit more intuitive. Bottom line is, I can always move them back up to the front doors later on, if I determine it will make a big enough difference, and / or I hit the freaking lotto' ! :-) Your thoughts ? Peace, Fish PS, The local stereo shop was trying to get me to drop the mid-bass idea altogether, and suggested I should put a set of coaxials back their.... just to use the other two channels of my 5 ch amp, if nothing else, and also maybe to give me a bit more rear fill (which I might, if I still had back seats, or if I ever had backseat passengers) Hmmmm. But it seems to me that mid-bass drivers grabbing from 80hz to 400hz would be less affected (hurt) being back their, than coaxials that were trying to grab from 80hz, all the way up to 20khz, and with nobody back there to listen to them anyway.

Hey Dred, sorry for the late reply {my monitor went out.... 2 days to replace it} Yea'.... this is what I'm trying to believe.... but if it were so simple, why is their SOOOO much confusion over calculations for t-line subwoofer setups (at least, relating to individual subwoofers) ? I've heard of stereo / mathematical gurus, who worked for years, to create a t-line calculator that was even "close" to accurate" ? All the while, I'm sitting there thinking, "Okay... So as kids, we made these little horns out of straws. The longer they were, the deeper sound they made". How freaking simple is that ? Hmmmm, Fish

Hey Dred, don't try to scare him :-) For one thing, he probably won't have to tune quite so low as 20hz, and therefor, won't need a 14ft pipe. For another, while tuning to the res. frequency of the sub might work well, I believe they can be tuned slightly higher, and still grab down a little lower. I'm hoping I can get by with tuning mine to 30 or 32 hz, even though I believe the res, freq. for my subs is 27hz.... then again, if need be, I suppose I could put another 45 degree bend in my pipe, add another few feet, and get it all the way down to 27hz :-) BTW Dred, I see your new here. Have you built and used t-lines yourself ? Peace, fish

Hey Airbourne {somebody correct me if I'm wrong} but I believe it has to do more with > how long does the t-line have to be if it's a 10" diameter, and you are shooting for say 33 hz.... then it will be longer, for either a lower frequency, or for a larger pipe diameter. From what I gather, pretty much any 10" sub, will need to be in a 10" diameter t-line, and a 12" sub, in a 12" diameter pipe..... But then again, this part of the equasion might not be that critical, as at least the one guy I posted the link for, reported good results with two 12"s in a single 12" diameter t-line, and this was "after" running just a single sub in the same t-line first..... Peace, Fish

Man Forevr, I think I have decided that I will try a t-line..... even if I start out with just a simple (temporary) rectangle cube box, ported and tuned..... Like I have said, building a test t-line would just be too easy, and cheap, 'not' to try it. You can get a 12" by like 14ft piece of Sono Tube for around $45. Then like I said, if it sounds great, fold that sucker in a sharp u-turn, put a finish on it, and slap it in there :-) Oh BTW, one more thing..... http://www.t-linespeakers.org/projects/steve/index.html This guy started out with a t-line for a single sub. Sounded phenominal. So then he wanted to run an additional sub, and he tried a (IMPO) dumb idea of adding a sub at the other end, making it sealed. That sounded like.... well, a 'not so great' sealed enclosure. Then, he finally went to running both subs at the same end of his original t-lines, and they sounded great again.... telling me that 'maybe' I will be okay to run 'both' of my 12"s at one end of a 12" x 9ft t-line.... and not neccessarily to have to run them face to face, with one out of phase, either. Peace, Fish

Hey Airborne, earlier you said > if I could figure out how to build my own crossover.... < Nearly all new HU's, and lots of the better amps have adjustable low pass x-overs, that should work just fine with a t-line setup, just as they would, with any other subwoofer setup. I'm just not sure why this would be an inpass for you ? Hmmm, Peace, Fish

I couldn't agree more ! ....and the reason I said > 5 ft of 12" diameter, then a tight u-turn, then 5 feet back the other way < is because this should quite easily fit against the back wall of my F150 supercab. As for a quad blow-through.... Yea', that would be cool, but 1) I'm not going to start chopping on a brand spanking new truck, and 2) I already have two 12"s..... Now, if my truck were 5 years old, and I had 4 or 6 15"s laying around.... Besides Eskii, you would have to know how I think; I hate to follow the crowd. To me, oddball stuff like a t-line in a vehicle is a very atractive idea. I know their are at least a few guys on this forum who "LOVE" t-lines. Hoping to hear from them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ BTW, one of my only concerns about t-lines, is that while on the one hand, they seem so simple to build (especially the SonoTube type) at the same time, they seem really tricky to model / predict...... Hmmmm, Fish

Come on now ! Don't be scared ! ;-) LOL Fish

I freaking hate it when this happens.... I get all spun out over a subject (not much different than a freaking crank head, except no actual drugs involved. Doh !) and my mind starts working so damn hard that two things happen.... 1) I have a really hard time focusing on any other important thing in life (effn AADD, I swear :-( 2) Most people don't want to think hard enough to try and follow me (effn human nature :-( ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So anyway, I'll try to keep this fun.... This is a pretty cool page... and look ! It has pictures too ! :-) http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/subs/subs.html#cabinets So, this guy is using two subs, with a single pipe, however, these "are not" set up in a push/pull configuration (like I'm considering) hence the reason this guy is using a 12" tube, for two 10" subs. 12" PVC would definately be rigid as $#!+... but more expensive, and harder to work with, than sono tube... So you wanna' see something "really outrageous" ? Check the Legend of El Pipo :-) This looks fun {granted your stereo vehicle would have to be a UPS truck :-) http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/el-pipe-o.pdf (sorry it's a pdf... the html page is cashed, and doesn't show photos) I know their used to be another page, that talked more about how crazy the bass output of this setup was, when they used it in a warehouse for a rave party.... But can't find it now. Sorry. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hmmm. So both of these are for home use. Both use damping material. I found the quote "stuff to taste" interesting. It's also nice that SonoTube is cheap, easy to work with, and easy to obtain. This brings me to my current brainstorm > A 12" diameter Sono Tube close to 5ft long, then a very tight "u-turn" formed by several wedge shaped slices of the same SonoTube, then 5 ft more SonoTube. A little glass, and resin. Doesn't sound real hard to me. Pretty cheap too, and can be finished however you want it. Line-X might be kind of cool :-) So, 12" dia. x 10 feet should get the tuning down in the range of 30Hz..... But I'm still trying to figure out if I can use my two 12"s at one end of my u-turn T-line, in a face to face (push-pull) configuration ? ......and how that would affect the outcome ? If not, then I wish I'd have bought just one, higher powered, pro sub, instead of two more modest ones. Now the question is, will anybody want to think hard enough to respond to this ??? Forevrbumpn ? Jhmeg2 ? Anyone ? Peace, Fish PS, A test enclosure (can we call it a "test tube" ? Doh ! :-) ...would be really cheap and easy, because of course you wouldn't need to put a u-turn bend in it, or finish it, to test it in a shop. Just figure a good way to attach your sub(s) to one end, and play with it.... maybe stuff it.... maybe lengthen, or shorten it... and when you get it just right, put a u-turn in it, finish it, slap that baby in the vehicle, and start rolling.....

Hey jhmeg2, okay, I read the whole t-line post by forevrbumpn. Very interesting. The thing is though (although I kept saying I had LOTS of space available) to do a pair of 12"s correctly, and tuned to 30 hz, would require 14 cubes ! Holy $#!+ ! I mean, I could probably do that, if I just used all of the rear space of my supercab.... and forget about staying below the rear window.... Then I had a thought; (which can sometimes be dangerous ;-) ...... now before I even ask, I have to believe their "is a way" that this could work, I just don't have any idea what that way is. But I'm hoping somebody does... What would happen if my two 12"s were mounted face to face, with one of them wired 180 degrees out of phase, in a push-pull configuration ??? {note; my subs are 2 ohm dual voice coils.... so, just to confirm, they can be setup like this, can't they ?} Would my t-line enclosure then be figured for only one 12" sub ??? I've actually heard that setting a pair of subs like this, reduces SPL, because you are cutting your speaker surface area in half, but that it produces very clean, controlled sound....... Of course now, t-line enclosures also produce very clean, controlled sound. I wonder if this has ever been done ? Hmmmmm. I already have the subs, and 700 wts for them...... Fish

Wow ! I really appreciate all of the great advice guys. Hey Jhmeg2, I would totally consider a t-line setup. Where can I find more info, on how to design a t-line for my two 12"s ? In fact, I reasearched them a bit, a few years ago, for home audio.... but never built one, as I could not have really enjoyed it, while renting a room. Anyway, one t-line I saw, used like 4 18"s, and a 24" X 14 foot sono tube :-) They said it filled a large warehouse with earthquaking bass.... and not that much power required either. Great for raves :-) Hey Boon, I'm going to do some more in-depth study of Qts, and also, just for kicks, I'm going to see what the Qts of my pair of 12"s in the factory recommended box would be. I'd be thrilled if it turned out to be .9 :-) Much thanks again guys, Fish PS, How freaking cool would Internet forums be, if all posts were just straight up, interesting, positive discussions like this one, rather than a bunch of worthless crap slinging ?

Hey Boon, and aznboi, yes, I understand about Hoffman's Law.... I mean, I think I understood / knew most of this before, anyway. But just because you mentioned it, I found this; http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/home/in...ffmans-iron-law .....and read it again. However, like I said, space is not an issue for me. I can make my enclosure as big as it needs to be, and this would help me get deep, and loud....... But I'm also asking about "tightness", and I don't see any correlation with this, and Hoffman's law.... In fact, if I had to take a wild guess, I'd say that while a bigger box would be louder (more efficient) and deeper, that it might also be sloppier (not as tight). Hmmmm, Fish

Hey Boon, if this is true, I'd be fine with this, as like I have said, I really don't have any space limits, for the size of my enclosure. I could give my two 12"s ten cubes if they needed it. I just don't think they do.... Now of course, low end extension = deep bass. However, does efficiency = tight, clean bass ? {because that's one of the things I'm looking for} but I thought efficiency was a measure of loudness per watt...... Fish

Hey Amazing, well space is not an issue. If my two 12"s needed 8 cubes, I could give it to them. I'm totally not opposed to a t-line setup..... I just know that they are "really tricky".... and unless I could have an experienced pro, first design, then build it for me, I just wouldn't want to do that myself. And the other problem, as I said in my other post, is that I listen to absolutely "every" different type of music you could possibly imagine.... From jungle music, to country, reggae, hard-rock, techno bass music, alternative, etc, etc..... Peace, Fish

Thank you Ptcary. One things for sure, I definately lean towards SQ, although I like some SPL too :-) My problem is, one day I might be listening to hard rock, or oldschool stuff with no more than mid-bass..... the next day, reggae.... and the next, straight up bass music..... sometimes all in the same day ! One thing in my favor, is that I will be running a pair of 8" mid-bass drivers..... so even if my 12"s don't want to "reach up that high" hopefully, I'll still have that 80hz to 200 hz range covered. Still, I want my subs to play deep / tight, and 'then' loud........ Hmmmm, Fish

Hey Emporor Really ? I knew that sealed enclosures make 'tight' bass..... but I had also heard that they didn't get down as low., as a large ported box, with low tuning...... Also (and I'm not doubting what your saying.... but rather, I just don't know what to believe) I recently read this little thing, where these audio pros "are even saying" that ported and tuned boxes can be as tight as sealed ??? Doesn't sound logical to me, but..... Do you agree with any of this stuff Emporor ? Hmmmm, Fish

I'm wondering which aspects (between, super-low, super-loud, and super-tight) don't (easily) go together ??? I mean, I've heard that a bigger box can get down deeper, and get louder, but that this won't produce the tightest sound either. Do you agree with this ? Now, personally speaking, I'm thinking that I have enough wattage, and enough speakers, that I'm going to be able to finish destroying my hearing soon enough, as it is (plenty loud enough)...... But even with the two aspects that matter the most to me > super-deep, and super-tight, are these two things tough to get out of the same box ? Please, no over-simplified answers like, "It's all about how you build the box"..... Duh. At the very least, I'm looking for a generalization like, "A bigger box, tuned like XXXX will give you really deep + tight bass, etc, etc..... Thanks, Fish > The future slammin' Fish wagon ;-)

Thanks again guys. BTW Altima, what cab size was your 97 F150 ? I had actually planned to tune my box pretty low... like 30-32hz, as I'm more interested in hitting the low notes, than in getting super loud.... so this might work out okay then, huh ? Hey Earthman, I'll try that too. Peace, Fish