Loudest SPL/SQL sealed set up

[akuma4u]

I don't think upping tuning would help with flatness, it can be done though and without increasing box size. May increase "loudness" at a cost of low end, if you listen to low tuned music like rap I would stay at 35Hz or below.

On that review or any review you have to make your mind on what you are reading and take many opinions before deciding, no doubt.

i listen to about 2% rap music.. the rest is various forms of electronic music. Ive read that for electronic music tuning to 35-36 hz is ideal. Plus iM totally willing to lose some super low end bass and trade it for loudness.

Not a problem 35Hz, also you can pick any subs you want, but be careful what you wish for, you are coming from a SQ setup, JL on sealed is SQ is pretty much that, ported on a high output sub is a different thing.

i expect going from sealed to ported to experience the following:

- harder hitting bass

- louder bass

- feel it more in your body

- greater SPL

- more flexing and vibrations

- a little loss in SQ but still enough to enjoy music on a daily basis

other than the loss of some SQ, everything seems on the plus side to me. If ive left anything out, pro or con, let me know so i can make a final decision on going ported or sealed cuz im looking to pull the trigger on this build in a few days.

[Triticum Agricolam]

just thinking almost all head units and amps bass boost setting is a boost at 45hz.. when i boost that it makes it sound pretty damn good, also there is a reason why these companies are choosing 45hz as a frequency to create their bass boosts. it must sound best at that level maybe?

I just dont want to get into a situation where i have a tuned box and/or sub that peaks at a frequency that is too low and basically makes only 10% of the music i have sound damn good but the rest is weak in comparison. I guess this comes back to getting a sub with a flat response lol.. going in circles kinda now.

i just spoke to a guy i know that is a sundown dealer and has his own shop, he is telling me to do a sundown x12 ported or mmmaybe a zv3.

at least i know what subs i have it narrowed down to now..

fi x, icon, x12, zv3, sa 10s, sa 12, ethos is out of stock until the WINTER, chaos.

Well my opinion is if you have a flatter, smoother response curve it doesn't matter what music you listen to, it should all sound pretty good. You give up a little bit of output to achieve that, but its a small price to pay in my opinion. If you really miss that little bit of extra output, put more watts to it.

I'm not surprised the guy who is a Sundown dealer recommended you get a beefy Sundown sub, that's what he is in the business of selling. I've got nothing against Sundown subs either, they are very well made and they do what they do extremely well. I've got one in my own vehicle (E-12). However the ones you are considering are peaky SPL subs, plain and simple. They are what they are and they can't be what they are not. If you choose to go with one of them, make sure that's what you want.

[akuma4u]

just thinking almost all head units and amps bass boost setting is a boost at 45hz.. when i boost that it makes it sound pretty damn good, also there is a reason why these companies are choosing 45hz as a frequency to create their bass boosts. it must sound best at that level maybe?

I just dont want to get into a situation where i have a tuned box and/or sub that peaks at a frequency that is too low and basically makes only 10% of the music i have sound damn good but the rest is weak in comparison. I guess this comes back to getting a sub with a flat response lol.. going in circles kinda now.

i just spoke to a guy i know that is a sundown dealer and has his own shop, he is telling me to do a sundown x12 ported or mmmaybe a zv3.

at least i know what subs i have it narrowed down to now..

fi x, icon, x12, zv3, sa 10s, sa 12, ethos is out of stock until the WINTER, chaos.

Well my opinion is if you have a flatter, smoother response curve it doesn't matter what music you listen to, it should all sound pretty good. You give up a little bit of output to achieve that, but its a small price to pay in my opinion. If you really miss that little bit of extra output, put more watts to it.

I'm not surprised the guy who is a Sundown dealer recommended you get a beefy Sundown sub, that's what he is in the business of selling. I've got nothing against Sundown subs either, they are very well made and they do what they do extremely well. I've got one in my own vehicle (E-12). However the ones you are considering are peaky SPL subs, plain and simple. They are what they are and they can't be what they are not. If you choose to go with one of them, make sure that's what you want.

thats funny u should say they are a "peaky SPL sub" cuz when he told me about running that I researched it and this is what sundown says about the x12:

"The X series is really a different kind of woofer due to it's incredibly linear suspension. They are designed for the LOWEST level of bass extension possible while maintaining low levels of distortion. They are NOT a peaky SPL woofer -- these are true low distortion, high excursion bass transducers!

Due to the extremely low level of suspension induced distortion the typical "punchy" upper-bass peak in the 40s-60s Hz range that occurs with traditional woofers when pushed to high excursion does not occur. This "punch" is caused by a tightening of the suspension over stroke leading to increased FS and Qts figures -- in other words it is distortion. In simpler terms -- the X series frequency response does not change much over it's full excursion range provided a consistant and flat response at any volume level. Once you experience and re-listen to all of your favorite music on a low distortion driver you are unlikely to go back!"

and he also told me the x12 plays low end bass louder than the zv3 so i guess that means the zv3 is the peaky one.

now - can u explain to me why you prefer ported boxes (at least thats what im assuming) when u r a fan of flat response and sealed boxes deliver flat response the best.

[Triticum Agricolam]

thats funny u should say they are a "peaky SPL sub" cuz when he told me about running that I researched it and this is what sundown says about the x12:

"The X series is really a different kind of woofer due to it's incredibly linear suspension. They are designed for the LOWEST level of bass extension possible while maintaining low levels of distortion.

They are NOT a peaky SPL woofer

-- these are true low distortion, high excursion bass transducers!

Due to the extremely low level of suspension induced distortion the typical "punchy" upper-bass peak in the 40s-60s Hz range that occurs with traditional woofers when pushed to high excursion does not occur. This "punch" is caused by a tightening of the suspension over stroke leading to increased FS and Qts figures -- in other words it is distortion. In simpler terms -- the X series frequency response does not change much over it's full excursion range provided a consistant and flat response at any volume level. Once you experience and re-listen to all of your favorite music on a low distortion driver you are unlikely to go back!"

and he also told me the x12 plays low end bass louder than the zv3 so i guess that means the zv3 is the peaky one.

now - can u explain to me why you prefer ported boxes (at least thats what im assuming) when u r a fan of flat response and sealed boxes deliver flat response the best.

Here is the thing, everything is relative and Sundown can describe their stuff however they would like, but the numbers don't lie. While the X series may be less peaky than a full on SPL sub, peaky it still is compared to a sub that provides a flat in-vehicle response. Take a look at this graph:

The green is the two FI X10s, the yellow is the Sundown X12, and the red is a Z v.3-12. Looks like they got a peak to me. Here is what they look like with approximated cabin gain:

With the cabin gain you get even more peakyness. What I'm telling you is not just based on what WinISD says either. Coincidentally I just built a box for a guy for two Sundown X10s, before I gave it to him I tried it out in my Jeep. I can tell you this, those X10s are beautifully built subs, they sound great and played loud and low, but they also have the peak just like WinISD says they should.

I do prefer ported boxes, and for a number of reasons. What I said before was I prefer a smooth frequency response that is "flatter", which is not the same thing as "flat". The light blue line in the graphs above is my current setup, which I like very much. You will notice it has a smooth and gradually rising response, the rise begins at a fairly high frequency and extends all the way below 30 Hz. This is with a Sundown E-12 in a 1.5 cube box tuned to 26 Hz. Its doesn't get super loud, but it gets loud enough for my modest tastes. I could probably achieve nearly the same frequency response with the right sub in a sealed box, but there are other advantages to ported boxes than just the boost in output around tuning.

[akuma4u]

Here is the thing, everything is relative and Sundown can describe their stuff however they would like, but the numbers don't lie. While the X series may be less peaky than a full on SPL sub, peaky it still is compared to a sub that provides a flat in-vehicle response. Take a look at this graph:

thats funny u should say they are a "peaky SPL sub" cuz when he told me about running that I researched it and this is what sundown says about the x12:

"The X series is really a different kind of woofer due to it's incredibly linear suspension. They are designed for the LOWEST level of bass extension possible while maintaining low levels of distortion. They are NOT a peaky SPL woofer -- these are true low distortion, high excursion bass transducers!

Due to the extremely low level of suspension induced distortion the typical "punchy" upper-bass peak in the 40s-60s Hz range that occurs with traditional woofers when pushed to high excursion does not occur. This "punch" is caused by a tightening of the suspension over stroke leading to increased FS and Qts figures -- in other words it is distortion. In simpler terms -- the X series frequency response does not change much over it's full excursion range provided a consistant and flat response at any volume level. Once you experience and re-listen to all of your favorite music on a low distortion driver you are unlikely to go back!"

and he also told me the x12 plays low end bass louder than the zv3 so i guess that means the zv3 is the peaky one.

now - can u explain to me why you prefer ported boxes (at least thats what im assuming) when u r a fan of flat response and sealed boxes deliver flat response the best.

The green is the two FI X10s, the yellow is the Sundown X12, and the red is a Z v.3-12. Looks like they got a peak to me. Here is what they look like with approximated cabin gain:

With the cabin gain you get even more peakyness. What I'm telling you is not just based on what WinISD says either. Coincidentally I just but a box for a guy for two Sundown X10s, before I gave it to him I tried it out in my Jeep. I can tell you this, those X10s are beautifully built subs, they sound great and played loud and low, but they also have the peak just like WinISD says they should.

I do prefer ported boxes, and for a number of reasons. What I said before was I prefer a smooth frequency response that is "flatter", which is not the same thing as "flat". The light blue line in the graphs above is my current setup, which I like very much. You will notice it has a smooth and gradually rising response, the rise begins at a fairly high frequency and extends all the way below 30 Hz. This is with a Sundown E-12 in a 1.5 cube box tuned to 26 Hz. Its doesn't get super loud, but it gets loud enough for my modest tastes. I could probably achieve nearly the same frequency response with the right sub in a sealed box, but there are other advantages to ported boxes than just the boost in output around tuning.

hey.. how accurate are these winISD graphs? are they usually almost spot or are they sometimes totally off?

and these graphs u did were done at what tuning? could u re-do them at 36hz? just curious what it would look like then..

thanks!

[Triticum Agricolam]

The graphs of raw output (without cabin gain) should be very accurate. The graphs with approximated cabin gain may not reflect what you get in the real world as well. Cabin gain is a tricky and complicated thing, a lot of different stuff effects it and you can't simulate it really well. Your actual in-vehicle frequency response may be a good bit different from what I approximated with the graphs, however the differences in output between the boxes should be very close to what WinISD says they are since the cabin gain for your vehicle should have the same effect regardless of which sub/box is used.

The stuff I posted was using a 32 Hz tuning for the 12" subs and a 33 Hz tuning for the 10". I can change everything to a 36 Hz tuning when I get back to my computer later tonight.

[akuma4u]

The graphs of raw output (without cabin gain) should be very accurate. The graphs with approximated cabin gain may not reflect what you get in the real world as well. Cabin gain is a tricky and complicated thing, a lot of different stuff effects it and you can't simulate it really well. Your actual in-vehicle frequency response may be a good bit different from what I approximated with the graphs, however the differences in output between the boxes should be very close to what WinISD says they are since the cabin gain for your vehicle should have the same effect regardless of which sub/box is used.

The stuff I posted was using a 32 Hz tuning for the 12" subs and a 33 Hz tuning for the 10". I can change everything to a 36 Hz tuning when I get back to my computer later tonight.

yes please do AND can u add the DD ts 3512 and 712 as well , everything tuned to 36hz..

the beauty of DD is that it is the most affordable as there is a shop here locally that has them in stock , everything else, from sundown to fi etc, i will be paying an arm and a leg to import here to canada, im talking about exchange rate which is horrible right now for us in canada, brokerage fee, shipping, taxes, duties, etc..

thank so much for your help. oh one other thing, i emailed the box designs that you and joe made up and asked a shop if he could make it, he said no problem but he said since the ports are curved in at the end it would not be possible to carpet that area.. is there any way around this? i cant have a bare wood box..

[Triticum Agricolam]

You can just paint the inside of the port.

Here are the graphs w/o and with approximated cabin gain. Green = FI X10, yellow = Sundown X12, red = Sundown Z v.3-12, purple = DD TS3512, orange = DD 712. All were tuned to 36 Hz.

[akuma4u]

You can just paint the inside of the port.

Here are the graphs w/o and with approximated cabin gain. Green = FI X10, yellow = Sundown X12, red = Sundown Z v.3-12, purple = DD TS3512, orange = DD 712. All were tuned to 36 Hz.

ah man thank u so much! this is so helpful. The two DDs and the FI X look best to me. was this comparing 2 fi x 10s to the rest which were all single 12s? if so, then the most economical way is to go with one of the DD 12s and run that ported. Now another thing , is this comparing all drivers on the SAME rms power? if no, then if i were to give one 12 1500 rms, the other 12 1200 rms, the 2 10s 2000 rms, another 12 1800 rms, another 12 2000 rms. etc , with the rms not evenly distributed, how much would it change these the curves on these graphs? would they still maintain the same shape just be taller ?

[Triticum Agricolam]

Yup its 2 x FI X10's, everything else is single 12"s.

That's all on the same power, if you were to add more power the shape the line stays exactly the same, it just moves up.