Thoughts On Fatmat

[Rudeboy]

Hello folks. The recently added review of FatMat was brought to my attention and I very much wanted to add my two cents. I see that that thread has been altered, so it is probably most appropriate to start a new thread. Since I'm new here, let me introduce myself. My name is Don Sambrook. Three years ago I bought a new car and wanted to control road noise and then upgrade the sound system. I'd never used any automotive sound deadening products and when I tried to learn about what was available, I only found conflicting opinions. Some people claimed that butyl adhesive was no better than asphalt and others insisted that Peel & Seal and Dynamat Xtreme were exactly the same thing, produced in the same factory in Ohio.

It was really difficult to make a rational decision. On the one hand, I really wanted to keep costs down. On the other, if the problems reported for asphalt were true, I didn't want to ruin my new car. This led me to take the nearly insane step of trying to test these products myself to get to the bottom of things. I ordered small quantities of several sound deadening mats and got the members of a few other forums to send me scraps. I devised a series of very crude tests to try and compare a few important characteristics. 30 or 40 people expressed an interest in what I was doing, so in October of 2005, I posted my results and observations so they could read them. Since then, more than 20,000 people have read what I wrote.

I know that was a lot to read, but I wanted to make it clear that I have no financial interest in the outcome of this debate (excet that I had hoped that Peel & Seal and Dynamat Xtreme were identical). More importantly, I have heard from several scientists working in this and related fields and hundreds of people who have shared their personal experiences.

An important note pertains to FatMat specifically. For several years it was run by a couple in Pennsylvania. They had a mixed record for customer service. As a perfect example, it took a few months for me to get the speaker kit I ordered to test. They somehow fell of the map and FatMat is now being run by a guy who owns a roofing supply company in Ohio - Galco Sales. By all accounts, he has been shipping product much more quickly. After an argument on another forum, he removed the false claim that FatMat used a butyl adhesive from the main FatMat site, but has not yet removed it from the other sites he runs or the eBay auctions for FatMat. He promised to stop telling callers that FatMat was butyl and I have no way of knowing if he has made good on that promise. Emails have been forwarded to me in which he claims that asphalt can be a superior material to butyl for sound deadening. Again, I can't know what he is thinking, but if he really believes this to be true, he is the only person in the world that does. He also claims to have tests that prove his assertion but has never made them public to my knowledge. Somebody in the original FatMat review thread mentioned that FatMat was very similar to Peel & Seal. I'll let you decide if the fact that the new owner's company also sells MFM Peel & Seal has any significance, but I have looked very closely at both products and can find NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL, other than the inked on blue label FatMat added a year or so ago.

The rest of this thread relates to all asphalt products when used for sound deadening. That could be Peel & Seal, any of Grace Construction's asphalt roofing products, FatMat, B-Quiet Extreme, R-Blox, Sound Destroyer and probably a few I

am forgetting.

The reviewer presents his own experience as somehow supporting claims that these products are durable when used in a car. I've had dozens of e-mails from people who's experience was quite different. Among them are Sean from Realm of Excursion and Jacob from Sundown. Both used to endorse the use of asphalt roofing products until both had them fail. In Jacob's case, in multiple vehicles. Jacob used the most meticulous installation technique I have ever encountered, so claims of installer error really don't seem to have any basis in reality.

Before I get into the mechanisms for asphalt failure, I want to point out that the debate is almost pointless. It's only if you believe that price per square foot is the only determinant of product value that asphalt makes any sense. Please believe me when I tell you that price/ft² is almost irrelevant. These products are intended to dampen vibrations. They do this a few different ways, but one of the most important is through what is called viscoelasticity. This is the process you may have heard of in which sound energy is converted to very low levels of heat. Butyl is viscoelastic. Asphalt is not. Asphalt is inherently a much less effective vibration damper. Everything I have seen supports the idea that far less butyl mat will do the same job as much more asphalt mat. I believe that $129 worth of butyl will do the same job as $129 worth of asphalt despite getting you many fewer square feet. You just need to spread it out. You get the same results with none of the risk.

I'm not going to claim that asphalt fails in every single case. IO do know I've seen many failed installations and have never seen a single one that lasted 3 years or more. The problem with asphalt is that it is more likely to fail the longer it is installed. Asphalt melts at a pretty low temperature. Rubber compounds are added to all of these products to increase their heat tolerance. That rubber deteriorates with age and exposure to temperatures that are significantly lower than those required to melt fresh product. Ironically, people suggest the use of a heat gun or hair drier to make the asphalt more flexible and stickier during installation. This actually hastens the deterioration of the stabilizers.

To add insult to injury, asphalt outgasses toxic fumes. That's the smell that some people find so offensive. So there you have it. Asphalt is a poor vibration damper under the best conditions. It will definitely be better than nothing of it doesn't melt or fall off. If it falls off, you can just throw it away. If it melts, you'll be throwing away your carpet, upholstery or whatever else it oozes into. If butyl is really that much better, why do people sell asphalt? Because it is much cheaper. Call it a sound deadener and you can charge even more for it.

Back to FatMat specifically, ask yourself why a product that can't be shown not to be Peel & Seal warrants a higher price than what you would pay if you drove to Lowes. The last I heard, the new owners weren't exactly admitting that it was asphalt, preferring to call it "rubberized mastic". Look that up and it says "asphalt".

Finally, I'm in no position to question the reviewers motives, but the old owners used to give customers discounts if they posted reviews on forums to which they belonged. It would be good to know if that played a role in this review. Statements about one person's experience with asphalt are a lot like the old guy who smoked a pack of cigarettes a day and was never sick a day in his life - definitely doesn't mean smoking is good for you and doesn't mean you or I won't get cancer if we follow his lead. This is important stuff. Sound deadening can make a huge difference in how much you enjoy your vehicle. It takes a lot of work and I really hate to see people make poor choices. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[Rza]

you can add fiberglassforums.com as a site who agrees with the failures of asphalt based mat and fatmat in particular. Ive used it several time and since switched to raammat and second skin damplifier pro, which are much better for use in florida where we reside.

[roscoe1129]

Wow. that was alot of reading. BUT very good reading IMO. I too have used about every type of dampining material and found asphalt based lacking. and the only way it stopped...nay helped reduce vibrations of the vehicles panels were due to the weight of the material.

p.s. Im gonna move this to the review section

[Spl Guru]

Until it "fails" ill continue to use it

Thanks and good day

[Guest MegaloManiac]

Haha, a discount on $129.99?

I love it that this is your first post too....

So where u from, hushmat, second skin.. LOL

How much are they paying ya??

Million dollar question. I invited Don to the forum, He knows a lot about deadening. He is not affiliated with any deadener company. He just wanted the best deadener for his use. So to do that he bought(with his own money)deadener from different companies and did his own tests(and shared it with the public). People seem to think he is affiliated with 2nd-skin("best") or RaaMat("best value" because he does advise those 2 products. but he is not at all he is just an enthusiasts to say.

Thanks Don for joining the forum and putting in your 2cents( as well my 2cents for me)!

[Rudeboy]

Haha, a discount on $129.99?

I love it that this is your first post too....

So where u from, hushmat, second skin.. LOL

How much are they paying ya??

Until it fails might be good enough for you. I'm just pointing out that many people have had some pretty catastrophic results. To follow on with the smoking analogy, your position is sort of like saying: "I'm going to smoke until it kills me."

On forums and in the new version of SDS I'm working on now, I also suggest Cascade as a top notch product and Dynamat Xtreme (if you can get it at a good price). At that rate, I'm being paid by 4 companies - which might be cool, but sadly it isn't. In fact, I try to stay away from specific recommendations on forums. The important thing is butyl adhesive and aluminum foil facing. The interaction between the two is a big deal. Google "constrained layer viscoelastic vibration damper" for details if you are really interested. Bear in mind that since viscoelastic is part of that, none of it applies to asphalt.

The idea that I worked for these companies was actually started by the previous owners of FatMat. It was pretty funny when people wold send me e-mails they had gotten from FatMat claiming (alternately) that I worked for RAAMmat or Second Skin. For all of that, you didn't actually say if you were getting anything for your review.

Here's something to consider. You'll see lots of people posting about how they have used a P&S type product in the past, used a decent butyl/aluminum foil mat this time and can't believe the difference, will never go back, etc. How often do you see anybody posting about using the good stuff in the past, using P&S this time and thinking it was good? Something else to consider. Doing a thorough job of sound deadening is a lot of work. Nobody likes to admit that they made a mistake after putting all of that time and effort into it. I give huge props to Jacob from Sundown. He and I used to bounce around several different forums debating this topic. His position was that butyl was better, but that asphalt was the value way to go. Once he started to see failures, he was very forthcoming about warning people that he had been wrong.

[Spl Guru]

You call it a mistake, yet it hasnt failed on me...

So I guess I cant admit im wrong till it fails..

*when i click on the sound deadner showdown in ur sig, the page comes up and whats at the very bottom?

Fatmat

ROTFL

[pstone11]

Have you done any testing with the spray, or roll on deadeners?

[roscoe1129]

You call it a mistake, yet it hasnt failed on me...

So I guess I cant admit im wrong till it fails..

*when i click on the sound deadner showdown in ur sig, the page comes up and whats at the very bottom?

Fatmat

ROTFL

O.K. man here it is one last time. POST YOUR USE OF IT AND YOUR FEELINGS. LEAVE ALL THE BULLSHIT OUT OF HERE. DO IT AGAIN AND YOUR GOING ON VACATION. I tried to be nice about it but you dont seem to get the clue

[Guest MegaloManiac]

You call it a mistake, yet it hasnt failed on me...

So I guess I cant admit im wrong till it fails..

*when i click on the sound deadner showdown in ur sig, the page comes up and whats at the very bottom?

Fatmat

ROTFL

those are google ads. he has no control over what appears there, the google ads are "intuitive" it picks up keywords and shows the ad.