SQ advice needed.

[firebirdude]

No, this is incorrect ... cone area is what draws your stage and image back or down, not frequencies above 2000 htz ... small midrange drivers and / or tweeters capable of playing down to 2000 htz gets used the most. You want the sence of presence that something is there, not being able to telll that you actually have rears ...

I'm not contradicting you, but just asking you to expand on this. I've always been taught to use midbass drivers in the rear if the customer is set on rears. Something 75Hz-200Hz. But yet, you specifically say that it's cone area, not frequency, that pulls your stage to the rear.

About the only way to really understand this is to get burned on it a couple of times in Sound Quality competition.

This is why I'm working on my midbass setup in White Lightning before next year's competition ... Now I know what I'm looking for on my 4th attempt in setting up midbass in this truck.

LOL So just because a group of individuals didn't care for how your vehicle sounded.

Would you not agree that "higher" frequencies, tweeter frequencies, are directional. And "lower" frequencies, subwoofer frequencies, are omnidirectional? So then wouldn't it only make sense to keep those highly directional speakers from behind the listener's head?

[White Lightning]

No, this is incorrect ... cone area is what draws your stage and image back or down, not frequencies above 2000 htz ... small midrange drivers and / or tweeters capable of playing down to 2000 htz gets used the most. You want the sence of presence that something is there, not being able to telll that you actually have rears ...

I'm not contradicting you, but just asking you to expand on this. I've always been taught to use midbass drivers in the rear if the customer is set on rears. Something 75Hz-200Hz. But yet, you specifically say that it's cone area, not frequency, that pulls your stage to the rear.

About the only way to really understand this is to get burned on it a couple of times in Sound Quality competition.

This is why I'm working on my midbass setup in White Lightning before next year's competition ... Now I know what I'm looking for on my 4th attempt in setting up midbass in this truck.

LOL So just because a group of individuals didn't care for how your vehicle sounded.

Would you not agree that "higher" frequencies, tweeter frequencies, are directional. And "lower" frequencies, subwoofer frequencies, are omnidirectional? So then wouldn't it only make sense to keep those highly directional speakers from behind the listener's head?

When you're in competition to be considered one of the best in the world ... hell yes I care about what experts have to say. I wouldn't be on this forum if I didn't.

Have you ever time aligned your sub stage to match up with your front stage and image ??

Omnidirectional ??? No such thing in Sound Quality brother ...

[caraudiochris]

hey guys.

Quick update.. played around with my car when I got home. Found an issue. Seems the crossovers on the 4 channel amp moved to somewhere around 200 (just a guess) and the gains were all out of whack. I'm definitely thinking it's time for a new amp. Anyways, readjusted my amps crossovers/gains and some of the mid-bass came back. thank God. I also did some fiddling with my subs crossover point. i moved it up as far as i could on the deck and then matched that on the amp. max lpf on the deck was 125hz, but at 125 the balance seemed to be off. It definitely made up for some of the lack of the mids low end but there seemed to be a noticeable step in the transition from sub to mid. So i moved the crossover point back to 100hz and it transitions a bit better now. I'm thinking its component upgrade time.

Per White lightnings suggestion I'm going to play around with tweeter placement in the pillar. I have some little tweeter pods that came with the NVX components so ill use those to test things out. I don't want to make anything permanent in case I change components. As much as I would like things to look stock I figure I can probably get away with a tweet in the pillar without anyone really noticing.

Oh since the crossover/gain issue has been corrected, the imaging seems to be fine, not pinpoint excellent, but good and that's only at low to moderate volumes. moderate being you can still here your passenger talk to you. higher volume than that and it loses a bit of the imaging. I am hoping that moving the tweets fix all that.

I am glad that moving the sub crossover point up worked for you. It will be even better once you add your processor and can do some better time alignment. I just had the same conversation with a guy on a Google Plus car audio group and referenced this thread as an example.

I look forward to seeing the changes you will have in the future.

[EyeMKermie]

hey guys.

Quick update.. played around with my car when I got home. Found an issue. Seems the crossovers on the 4 channel amp moved to somewhere around 200 (just a guess) and the gains were all out of whack. I'm definitely thinking it's time for a new amp. Anyways, readjusted my amps crossovers/gains and some of the mid-bass came back. thank God. I also did some fiddling with my subs crossover point. i moved it up as far as i could on the deck and then matched that on the amp. max lpf on the deck was 125hz, but at 125 the balance seemed to be off. It definitely made up for some of the lack of the mids low end but there seemed to be a noticeable step in the transition from sub to mid. So i moved the crossover point back to 100hz and it transitions a bit better now. I'm thinking its component upgrade time.

Per White lightnings suggestion I'm going to play around with tweeter placement in the pillar. I have some little tweeter pods that came with the NVX components so ill use those to test things out. I don't want to make anything permanent in case I change components. As much as I would like things to look stock I figure I can probably get away with a tweet in the pillar without anyone really noticing.

Oh since the crossover/gain issue has been corrected, the imaging seems to be fine, not pinpoint excellent, but good and that's only at low to moderate volumes. moderate being you can still here your passenger talk to you. higher volume than that and it loses a bit of the imaging. I am hoping that moving the tweets fix all that.

I am glad that moving the sub crossover point up worked for you. It will be even better once you add your processor and can do some better time alignment. I just had the same conversation with a guy on a Google Plus car audio group and referenced this thread as an example.

I look forward to seeing the changes you will have in the future.

I have new wiring coming in the next week. swapping to a newer true 0 gauge wire plus 4 gauge and 14 gauge speaker wire. going all OFC and getting rid of the CCA wire and cheap speaker wire.

I have been looking into a new 4 channel amp. Found these.. a PPI i1000.4 and a Cadence Momentum CSA1000.4

Anyone have some insight on these?.. Im pretty limited on space and these will fit. I like PPI's products but I have heard that class A/B amps sound better.

Also... White Lightning said to move up in power to about 150w per channel. I'm not confident in the power handling of these NVX V series components so I have been looking into something that can handle the power plus with have a better tweet and freq response.

Had my eyes on a set of PPI PC2.65c 2 ways, cadence qrs6k2, or RE audio xxx6.5c.... possibly the PPI P65c3 or cadence qrs6k3, but i dont know if i can mount the mid next to the midwoofer in an off axis lower door position.. so probably gonna stick with 2 way setup...

Any input guys... thanks.

[White Lightning]

More power in reserve you can give = less gain gain you have to use = better dynamics, clarity, definition of stage and image = Less stress on drivers trying to reproduce critical notes needed for clean quality sound. Better known as headroom ...

[caraudiochris]

hey guys.

Quick update.. played around with my car when I got home. Found an issue. Seems the crossovers on the 4 channel amp moved to somewhere around 200 (just a guess) and the gains were all out of whack. I'm definitely thinking it's time for a new amp. Anyways, readjusted my amps crossovers/gains and some of the mid-bass came back. thank God. I also did some fiddling with my subs crossover point. i moved it up as far as i could on the deck and then matched that on the amp. max lpf on the deck was 125hz, but at 125 the balance seemed to be off. It definitely made up for some of the lack of the mids low end but there seemed to be a noticeable step in the transition from sub to mid. So i moved the crossover point back to 100hz and it transitions a bit better now. I'm thinking its component upgrade time.

Per White lightnings suggestion I'm going to play around with tweeter placement in the pillar. I have some little tweeter pods that came with the NVX components so ill use those to test things out. I don't want to make anything permanent in case I change components. As much as I would like things to look stock I figure I can probably get away with a tweet in the pillar without anyone really noticing.

Oh since the crossover/gain issue has been corrected, the imaging seems to be fine, not pinpoint excellent, but good and that's only at low to moderate volumes. moderate being you can still here your passenger talk to you. higher volume than that and it loses a bit of the imaging. I am hoping that moving the tweets fix all that.

I am glad that moving the sub crossover point up worked for you. It will be even better once you add your processor and can do some better time alignment. I just had the same conversation with a guy on a Google Plus car audio group and referenced this thread as an example.

I look forward to seeing the changes you will have in the future.

I have new wiring coming in the next week. swapping to a newer true 0 gauge wire plus 4 gauge and 14 gauge speaker wire. going all OFC and getting rid of the CCA wire and cheap speaker wire.

I have been looking into a new 4 channel amp. Found these.. a PPI i1000.4 and a Cadence Momentum CSA1000.4

Anyone have some insight on these?.. Im pretty limited on space and these will fit. I like PPI's products but I have heard that class A/B amps sound better.

Also... White Lightning said to move up in power to about 150w per channel. I'm not confident in the power handling of these NVX V series components so I have been looking into something that can handle the power plus with have a better tweet and freq response.

Had my eyes on a set of PPI PC2.65c 2 ways, cadence qrs6k2, or RE audio xxx6.5c.... possibly the PPI P65c3 or cadence qrs6k3, but i dont know if i can mount the mid next to the midwoofer in an off axis lower door position.. so probably gonna stick with 2 way setup...

Any input guys... thanks.

Power isn't what kills a speaker, unless you are running double to triple RMS power and I doubt you would be doing that. White Lightning probably already thought of that before he recommended it.

[caraudiochris]

More power in reserve you can give = less gain gain you have to use = better dynamics, clarity, definition of stage and image = Less stress on drivers trying to reproduce critical notes needed for clean quality sound. Better known as headroom ...

couldn't of said it better myself lol.

[EyeMKermie]

More power in reserve you can give = less gain gain you have to use = better dynamics, clarity, definition of stage and image = Less stress on drivers trying to reproduce critical notes needed for clean quality sound. Better known as headroom ...

I know a bit about headroom and completely get why i should supply them with more power. At my normal listening volumes ( about 30% deck volume), with a 150w rms/channel amp I'm guessing the speakers are seeing about 50watts compared to the near 25watts supplied by my current amp... but at full volume.. rarely do i do this but i do .. do it. those speakers are seeing more power than they are rated for at their peak rating... which would mean more stress and heat.. thus leading to damage.

Am i getting this wrong?

[EyeMKermie]

hey guys.

Quick update.. played around with my car when I got home. Found an issue. Seems the crossovers on the 4 channel amp moved to somewhere around 200 (just a guess) and the gains were all out of whack. I'm definitely thinking it's time for a new amp. Anyways, readjusted my amps crossovers/gains and some of the mid-bass came back. thank God. I also did some fiddling with my subs crossover point. i moved it up as far as i could on the deck and then matched that on the amp. max lpf on the deck was 125hz, but at 125 the balance seemed to be off. It definitely made up for some of the lack of the mids low end but there seemed to be a noticeable step in the transition from sub to mid. So i moved the crossover point back to 100hz and it transitions a bit better now. I'm thinking its component upgrade time.

Per White lightnings suggestion I'm going to play around with tweeter placement in the pillar. I have some little tweeter pods that came with the NVX components so ill use those to test things out. I don't want to make anything permanent in case I change components. As much as I would like things to look stock I figure I can probably get away with a tweet in the pillar without anyone really noticing.

Oh since the crossover/gain issue has been corrected, the imaging seems to be fine, not pinpoint excellent, but good and that's only at low to moderate volumes. moderate being you can still here your passenger talk to you. higher volume than that and it loses a bit of the imaging. I am hoping that moving the tweets fix all that.

I am glad that moving the sub crossover point up worked for you. It will be even better once you add your processor and can do some better time alignment. I just had the same conversation with a guy on a Google Plus car audio group and referenced this thread as an example.

I look forward to seeing the changes you will have in the future.

I have new wiring coming in the next week. swapping to a newer true 0 gauge wire plus 4 gauge and 14 gauge speaker wire. going all OFC and getting rid of the CCA wire and cheap speaker wire.

I have been looking into a new 4 channel amp. Found these.. a PPI i1000.4 and a Cadence Momentum CSA1000.4

Anyone have some insight on these?.. Im pretty limited on space and these will fit. I like PPI's products but I have heard that class A/B amps sound better.

Also... White Lightning said to move up in power to about 150w per channel. I'm not confident in the power handling of these NVX V series components so I have been looking into something that can handle the power plus with have a better tweet and freq response.

Had my eyes on a set of PPI PC2.65c 2 ways, cadence qrs6k2, or RE audio xxx6.5c.... possibly the PPI P65c3 or cadence qrs6k3, but i dont know if i can mount the mid next to the midwoofer in an off axis lower door position.. so probably gonna stick with 2 way setup...

Any input guys... thanks.

Power isn't what kills a speaker, unless you are running double to triple RMS power and I doubt you would be doing that. White Lightning probably already thought of that before he recommended it.

150watts per channel is double the rms power rating of my current speakers.

[reedal]

You can have a double or triple increased RMS amplifier and still be safe with those speakers. It's about how you set the gain. Remember it's not a volume knob, it's a voltage matching potentiometer. Use a -0dB 1khz tone and the proper tool to see where the amp starts to distort at and I'm sure you'll be more than fine. Or, since you say you very rarely turn the volume up a lot, use a -5dB tone for a little more output at your normal listening volume, and you still won't see half of that amplifiers power going to your speakers.