People talking trash on 18's

[r0llinlacs]

It's always easier to ignore what you don't want to hear. Obviously you know you're wrong and won't admit it, so you ignore me. Ignorance is bliss.

And I also love how nobody can back their words up. All you can say is "no" and "you're wrong" but you don't say why.

Anyways, I'll be absent from this thread until somebody can either disprove me with facts (not some article you read but don't understand), or defies physics.

Cowards

-OK, So your claim is that 18s can not produce the same transient response as 10s and 12s?

-That the larger woofers are slower in transitioning frequencies than their smaller coned counterparts?

-You site physics of inertia due to higher moving mass of larger cones as a reason for this?

-You also site the phenomena of power compression (which is to say that the larger cones would move a larger air mass, thus increasing total pressure build up on the woofer cone which would add resistance to movement) You claim this pressure build up will "Slow Down" a woofer.

Ok, My rebuttal

First lets define "Transient Response". In terms of subwoofers, it basically means the woofer's reaction to a sudden change in it's input.

It has been posted above a lesson stating that this is primarily a function of the electromechanical nature of the woofer, or it's voice coil and motor, and not the moving mass.

Also I had previously posted that an 18" woofer can be produced with a lighter cone material than a 10" woofer. Negating any argument using moving mass of the woofer as a factor.

So in reference to pressure build up on the cone being a factor in dampening or slowing a woofer's transient response.

- In testing various woofer and enclosure combinations, we often get varied results in frequency response and SPL as well as many other characteristics. There is a phenomena in which air will pressurize inside an enclosure during rarefraction, or when the woofer cone moves in. We also see this happen in the listening environment of the vehicle during excursion. Also what happens is a vacuum forming inside an enclosure during excursion and the same in the cab during rarefraction.

During high excursion moments and in very small air volumes, we can see such a great amount of pressure build up, that the motor of the woofer can no longer push the cone against the air pressure resistance.

This resistance does translate electrically as impedance rise or drops through the voice coil and to the amplifier.

Depending on how the enclosure, woofer, and listening environment all work together, this can have varying effects on the performance of a woofer. The woofer can indeed be dampened in it's frequency response and total output and it's ability to react quickly to changes in input signal can be greatly effected.

But it is a broad and general statement to claim just that if there is more air being pushed, that it will slow the transient response of a woofer. This is not a correct assessment as the complete opposite can and does occur as well.

Air has a "spring" effect when compressed and in some enclosure, woofer, and environment combinations may actually aid the woofer in it's transient abilities. This may also raise the frequency response in some woofers. This happens because the air will act as another part of the suspension and along with the surround and spiders, it will push the woofer back to center at the same time the electrical signal is telling the coil to return to center.

The key here is that there are many factors involved and the outcome can vary.

Another claim was made that every object has a resonant frequency and that larger objects have a lower resonance. This is not always true. Resonance also has to do with density and mass. For instance, a concrete block 4ft x4ft will have a much higher resonance than a rubber pad 1ft x 1ft.

This goes back to my earlier statement about cone materials and how a larger woofer can utilize a much lighter and less massive cone than a smaller woofer.

The ability of the larger woofer to have a lower frequency response will also have to do with the larger air mass that the cone will vibrate, and resonance will take that air mass into account.

Hmm, what else, I dunno, how about I have experience extremely accurate 18s that were amazing, and very very low playing 10s.

Thank you. There are A LOT of variables, and YES, I DO AGREE, that given the right circumstances, an 18 could play as clean as a 10, but realize that one does not exist. I'm not saying it's impossible, there's just no market for it. Not to mention it would be a massive, expensive 18. And I too, have heard super low playing 10's, and those low playing 10's had a horrible transient response that was almost 100% the enclosures fault.

Yes, a lot of my statements were generalized, simply because of the amount of variables. Yes, something made of rubber vs. concrete will have a lower resonant frequency just because of it's flexibility/ability to move. But generally, larger objects have lower resonant frequencies. And let's face it, they don't make 18's with different cone material than their lesser counterparts, just to keep the resonant frequency up. Not saying that a low resonant frequency is bad, just not the same as a 10. They each have their own uses. Like 10's in a sealed box are good for rock etc, and 18's in a big ported box are best with rap. Simple as that.

[TeamHT]

And that is part of the problem. Some are so confident completely unaware of how badly their misinformation hurts the community. A debate is one thing, but why waste time if you are talking with someone who has no idea of what he is talking about? Or how what he is even referencing applies, and when it does not apply. People who do not know any better, will hear his words and see his confidence and actually think he may be right. Shit, that may have been where he got his information. It's sad, an alleged "audiophile sq guy" should know better.

[r0llinlacs]

It's always easier to ignore what you don't want to hear. Obviously you know you're wrong and won't admit it, so you ignore me. Ignorance is bliss.

And I also love how nobody can back their words up. All you can say is "no" and "you're wrong" but you don't say why.

Anyways, I'll be absent from this thread until somebody can either disprove me with facts (not some article you read but don't understand), or defies physics.

Cowards

-OK, So your claim is that 18s can not produce the same transient response as 10s and 12s?

-That the larger woofers are slower in transitioning frequencies than their smaller coned counterparts?

-You site physics of inertia due to higher moving mass of larger cones as a reason for this?

-You also site the phenomena of power compression (which is to say that the larger cones would move a larger air mass, thus increasing total pressure build up on the woofer cone which would add resistance to movement) You claim this pressure build up will "Slow Down" a woofer.

Ok, My rebuttal

First lets define "Transient Response". In terms of subwoofers, it basically means the woofer's reaction to a sudden change in it's input.

It has been posted above a lesson stating that this is primarily a function of the electromechanical nature of the woofer, or it's voice coil and motor, and not the moving mass.

Also I had previously posted that an 18" woofer can be produced with a lighter cone material than a 10" woofer. Negating any argument using moving mass of the woofer as a factor.

So in reference to pressure build up on the cone being a factor in dampening or slowing a woofer's transient response.

- In testing various woofer and enclosure combinations, we often get varied results in frequency response and SPL as well as many other characteristics. There is a phenomena in which air will pressurize inside an enclosure during rarefraction, or when the woofer cone moves in. We also see this happen in the listening environment of the vehicle during excursion. Also what happens is a vacuum forming inside an enclosure during excursion and the same in the cab during rarefraction.

During high excursion moments and in very small air volumes, we can see such a great amount of pressure build up, that the motor of the woofer can no longer push the cone against the air pressure resistance.

This resistance does translate electrically as impedance rise or drops through the voice coil and to the amplifier.

Depending on how the enclosure, woofer, and listening environment all work together, this can have varying effects on the performance of a woofer. The woofer can indeed be dampened in it's frequency response and total output and it's ability to react quickly to changes in input signal can be greatly effected.

But it is a broad and general statement to claim just that if there is more air being pushed, that it will slow the transient response of a woofer. This is not a correct assessment as the complete opposite can and does occur as well.

Air has a "spring" effect when compressed and in some enclosure, woofer, and environment combinations may actually aid the woofer in it's transient abilities. This may also raise the frequency response in some woofers. This happens because the air will act as another part of the suspension and along with the surround and spiders, it will push the woofer back to center at the same time the electrical signal is telling the coil to return to center.

The key here is that there are many factors involved and the outcome can vary.

Another claim was made that every object has a resonant frequency and that larger objects have a lower resonance. This is not always true. Resonance also has to do with density and mass. For instance, a concrete block 4ft x4ft will have a much higher resonance than a rubber pad 1ft x 1ft.

This goes back to my earlier statement about cone materials and how a larger woofer can utilize a much lighter and less massive cone than a smaller woofer.

The ability of the larger woofer to have a lower frequency response will also have to do with the larger air mass that the cone will vibrate, and resonance will take that air mass into account.

Hmm, what else, I dunno, how about I have experience extremely accurate 18s that were amazing, and very very low playing 10s.

Thank you for that, I was believing rollianacs because he gave a reason why 18's were not as good but now I read your post and now I see how it all works. It makes sense to me. Some people arent hardheaded, sometimes you just got to break it down for them, but some are hardheaded. And thanks again for a respectful post on how this all works.

Seriously??? All he did was prove what I said....?? You must not have comprehended it correctly.

And I didn't say they're not as good. They have their uses. Just like 10's. But to say they perform the same is just ludicrous. No two woofers in the world will perform exactly the same, even if they are the exact same subs.

[Kranny]

im doing this right the fuck now. you're actually useful for once hunter

edit: lol holy shit it worked! sweet!

shutup.. go buy more ebay alts

haha ouchhh, nice diss.

[flwatersaver]

Video from r0llinlacs youtube page

[Kranny]

i bet that speaker can play double bass drum notes real well LOL

[r0llinlacs]

i bet that speaker can play double bass drum notes real well LOL

Naw, the cone and surround are one piece, all rubber, which dampens the shiz out of it. It sounds like a big 18 in likes to transient response.

[flwatersaver]

i bet that speaker can play double bass drum notes real well LOL

Naw, the cone and surround are one piece, all rubber, which dampens the shiz out of it. It sounds like a big 18 in likes to transient response.

My bet is that you have never even seen a 18 inch woofer, or heard one.

[Kranny]

only reason i saw his post is cause watersaver quoted him LOL. maybe it sounds like an 18 cause theres 3 fucking "port" holes ghetto drilled in the "box"

[r0llinlacs]

i bet that speaker can play double bass drum notes real well LOL

Naw, the cone and surround are one piece, all rubber, which dampens the shiz out of it. It sounds like a big 18 in likes to transient response.

My bet is that you have never even seen a 18 inch woofer, or heard one.

only reason i saw his post is cause watersaver quoted him LOL. maybe it sounds like an 18 cause theres 3 fucking "port" holes ghetto drilled in the "box"

I've heard 2" to 18" subs.

And that 2" is in a sealed box now and it puts out bass now. But it still sucks at transients.