Why do subwoofers cost so much?

[P4killer_]

See I get all of that. And clearly You are more educated about the subject than I. I guess what im Saying this:

If youre selling pencils for $5, you should not be limited to sell them for say $3 max or told that you cant charge $10 if you wanted to. And if the customer is happy paying $5 for a pencil than why you as the maker accept less, you shouldnt.

But if i as the company owner know that each pencil costs me $.02, and I still charge $5 each.. there is NOTHING WRONG with that technically.

But I find it morally wrong. There is a middle ground. You need to make enough to cover all those expenses yes. And make a decent living yes.

But at what point is too much. When the consumers pay well beyond what is reasonable.. and its not the company's fault, its the consumers.

Its our job to understand that a better pencil than your standard one may cost $.05 instead of $.02 or even as much as $1.00 if its a revolutionary pencil. But $5 is just extreme. And just unreasonable really.

Of course this example is very exaggerated, only to help show my way of thinking.

There will also be a point x where this is what you have to xharge to stay in business.

Beyond that, there is a range of values. Some companies fall at the cheaper end some at the higher end. Understandable. But there are also some company's above the high end. And why is that ok?

Morally, why is that ok? Technically it is sure. But based on what has been previously said, there is no reason to charge 40% above the high end range. Not from a component stand point. Not from a cost of business stand point. Because every company has those same costs. Not just company x.

[Kyblack76]

There are some, nice drivers yes, but up charged for sure.

And the "you get what you pay for" can go to the other extreme of your just over paying.

That, is fact.

[P4killer_]

There are some, nice drivers yes, but up charged for sure.

And the "you get what you pay for" can go to the other extreme of your just over paying.

That, is fact.

Exactly.

[HHR Ed]

Steel, Aluminum, Plastic, Glass costs all together can cost a certain amount per ton.

You still pay more for a Corvette than you do for a Chevy Venture.

R& D, attention to detail. Refinement, man hours are all factored into costs.

Also, not all stell, copper, paper, aluminum, carbon is the same as the next.

Carbon or any composite cones cost much more than paper cones.

Adhesives are another thing to consider as different cone/surround materials require different adhesives.

Also, not all steel and ceramic motors are the same. Higher cost motors are higher quality materials but also charge on better machines. Making the magnetic saturation much stronger for a better performing motor.

You can have 2 identical motors, take 1 to a cheap lace to be charged and it will have half the force as taking the other to an expensive place to be charged.

Kowabi motors are usually the best. From Japan.

You also have standards of the manufacturer. One might accept spiders glued in a position with a 4mm tolerance each way. Another might set 1mm as a tolerance. The smaller tolerance requires more time and effort, maybe better jigs and measuring equipment which equals more money.

One brand might accept a certain glue they can get for $5 a bottle.

Another company might have tested that same glue and had it fail on them too many times. So they go for the $15 per bottle glue.

Some voice coils are manufactured in the US wil high quality adhesive, ceramic coatings, and an extra step in the baking process and use a high quality glass fiber over high quality former materials.

Other voice coils skip on the ceramic coatings and use paper on the formers and maybe cheaper glue good to a lower temp than the expensive stuff.

Really good coils can cost up to $40 from the manufacturer.

Another factor is quantity and suppliers and buying power.

The cost to tool a basket can be as much as $60,000. This cost gets factored in to woofer price.

Some companies use open tooling already in existence, others choose to do their own for better performance or a more unique product.

Also, per piece prices on anything. Cones, baskets, coils etc... cost more with lower quantities.

So if one brand only produces 100 woofers per year, they may pay twice as much for parts than what a brand that produced 1000 woofers per year does.

It is rare that any brand will charge more simply because of name. That is a rumor started by people upset at their prices.

there are specific formulas in manufacturing and wholesale to go by when figuring prices. Some deviate slightly. But most of the time, you get what you pay for.

[Noel989]

OP I've read most of your posts and all you talk about is how much it costs to build a sub but not the business side, which I think that's the part you don't understand

If you think about the build house of brand x

How much do you think it cost them to get subwoofer parts? How much they sell them to brand x?

They probably get dust caps for a couple pennies

[HHR Ed]

Steel, Aluminum, Plastic, Glass costs all together can cost a certain amount per ton.

You still pay more for a Corvette than you do for a Chevy Venture.

R& D, attention to detail. Refinement, man hours are all factored into costs.

Also, not all stell, copper, paper, aluminum, carbon is the same as the next.

Carbon or any composite cones cost much more than paper cones.

Adhesives are another thing to consider as different cone/surround materials require different adhesives.

Also, not all steel and ceramic motors are the same. Higher cost motors are higher quality materials but also charge on better machines. Making the magnetic saturation much stronger for a better performing motor.

You can have 2 identical motors, take 1 to a cheap lace to be charged and it will have half the force as taking the other to an expensive place to be charged.

Kowabi motors are usually the best. From Japan.

You also have standards of the manufacturer. One might accept spiders glued in a position with a 4mm tolerance each way. Another might set 1mm as a tolerance. The smaller tolerance requires more time and effort, maybe better jigs and measuring equipment which equals more money.

One brand might accept a certain glue they can get for $5 a bottle.

Another company might have tested that same glue and had it fail on them too many times. So they go for the $15 per bottle glue.

Some voice coils are manufactured in the US wil high quality adhesive, ceramic coatings, and an extra step in the baking process and use a high quality glass fiber over high quality former materials.

Other voice coils skip on the ceramic coatings and use paper on the formers and maybe cheaper glue good to a lower temp than the expensive stuff.

Really good coils can cost up to $40 from the manufacturer.

Another factor is quantity and suppliers and buying power.

The cost to tool a basket can be as much as $60,000. This cost gets factored in to woofer price.

Some companies use open tooling already in existence, others choose to do their own for better performance or a more unique product.

Also, per piece prices on anything. Cones, baskets, coils etc... cost more with lower quantities.

So if one brand only produces 100 woofers per year, they may pay twice as much for parts than what a brand that produced 1000 woofers per year does.

It is rare that any brand will charge more simply because of name. That is a rumor started by people upset at their prices.

there are specific formulas in manufacturing and wholesale to go by when figuring prices. Some deviate slightly. But most of the time, you get what you pay for.

[P4killer_]

I was just thinking out loud and the reason I dont mention the cost business much is because as I said, the cost of business for any subwoofer company is roughly roughly the same. They pay the same shipping the same taxes the same fees its not like company x pays the cost of business and company y does not.

Could we agree on that?

Now as Ed has supplied more information to consider, allow me to generalize.

Lets say comp x is run of the mill

comp y is upper end.

What is the cost difference across the board?

If x pays 100 per unit. Y pays 130 for better parts.

Company x pays 30 for glues etc. Y pays 50.

After that the cost for each likely doesnt very much.

So thats 130 for x 180 for y. Woofer y costs 38% more at this point.

Yes quanity plays a factor. If company y buys double the quanity and is able to get thier woofer for 130 each, youd think they would share the saving with the consumer. I dont think they do.

So if the comsumer pays 300 for woofer x. And woofer y is 38% more costly, youd expect to pay 414 or so. But instead they charge 750 each. Thats 336 dollars more. Which imo is immoral.

[P4killer_]

But anyway. I know im being difficult and using random numbers to suit my arguement. Which may not even be close to realistic. I just wanted to see what anyone else thought about it.

[HHR Ed]

I was just thinking out loud and the reason I dont mention the cost business much is because as I said, the cost of business for any subwoofer company is roughly roughly the same. They pay the same shipping the same taxes the same fees its not like company x pays the cost of business and company y does not.

Could we agree on that?

Now as Ed has supplied more information to consider, allow me to generalize.

Lets say comp x is run of the mill

comp y is upper end.

What is the cost difference across the board?

If x pays 100 per unit. Y pays 130 for better parts.

Company x pays 30 for glues etc. Y pays 50.

After that the cost for each likely doesnt very much.

So thats 130 for x 180 for y. Woofer y costs 38% more at this point.

Yes quanity plays a factor. If company y buys double the quanity and is able to get thier woofer for 130 each, youd think they would share the saving with the consumer. I dont think they do.

So if the comsumer pays 300 for woofer x. And woofer y is 38% more costly, youd expect to pay 414 or so. But instead they charge 750 each. Thats 336 dollars more. Which imo is immoral.

Not all companies cost the same to run.

The larger the company, the larger the facility and the more the employees.

You also have to consider distribution channels.

Company A may sell direct so they mark up once.

Company B may sell to dealers so they mark up twice.

Company C may have a master distributor who sells to territory distributors who sells to retailers who sells to you. Everyone on that chain marks up a set percentage.

Also, consider the product itself.

I mentioned that a basket tooling can cost 60,000 bucks.

Some woofer brands choose a basic design. If they use open toolings, they have no toolings costs to factor in.

Large brands like RF, Kicker etc... Tool their own baskets. That's a fee. Patent that basket, thats another fee. Tool theyr own cones, surrounds, terminals, badges, plastic cosmetic pieces, vents, spacers, spiders, wire leads, coils and formers. Magnet slugs, motor parts. And get patents on all parts seperate and the product as a whole.

Now you have a company that invested $400,000 to create 1 woofer line in 3 sizes. And that does not include inventory at all.

They also spend money on custom packaging, testing, CE, UL certifications, marketing materials etc...

Versus Brand X that used open source for everything and invest $60,000 simply for inventory of a few hunded woofers in 3 sizes. They ship in brown boxes and have no independent testing, no certifications, and no patents.

When I worked for 1 manufacturer, it cost us about $100,000 just to get 1 certification to sell in the US.

Not all brands do that but it can be needed at higher levels of production and sales.

[P4killer_]

Yea I realized that. Full on big company kicker jl etc werent really part of this thought of mine. Everything is different in corporate America. The scale there is so beyond me its ridiculous. Your talking millions of dollars. Which I

Understand. At that point your talking serious distribution and retail and jesus christ. I can't begin to understand the complexity of those operations.

I was talking like more of start ups. Brand common to this site etc. Many of which arent even close to dealing with going corporate.

So for them it does come down to build houses etc and is inherently simpler.