Step-up to 16v or Step-down to 12v

[kirill007]

So what benefits does a 16V alternator has over a 12V alternator if they both can only supply 2400W for long periods?

efficiency. and also make more theoretical power.

to make things simple,

lets say your demand is 2400 watts. 2400 wattis is V x A in dc. if you raise the voltage you decrease your amperage requirement. so if you charge at 14v youll need approx 2400/14v = 171 amps to run "2400watts" inreality after efficiency that would probably be a 2000 wat rms amp.

if you charged at 16 volts, 2400/16=150 amps. so you dont need as large of an alternator, or your alt wont be running near its max.

but higher voltage also means you have the potential to make more power.

to answer your question, the benefit is you dont need as much current. higher voltage, less current. thats why utility power runs at 13kv and 69kv etc, so they can get away with smaller wires to cut costs. cause larger amperage require larger wires.

Yes, but other then wiring, if the alternator can only supply 2400W continuously, what use does the higher voltage have? (except some amps that run cooler, eventhough there are also amps that dislike higher voltages)

But with his step up box, you will still need the huge alternator, you'll even need a 5-10% bigger one depending on how efficient it is.

So what benefits does a 16V alternator has over a 12V alternator if they both can only supply 2400W for long periods?

efficiency. and also make more theoretical power.

to make things simple,

lets say your demand is 2400 watts. 2400 wattis is V x A in dc. if you raise the voltage you decrease your amperage requirement. so if you charge at 14v youll need approx 2400/14v = 171 amps to run "2400watts" inreality after efficiency that would probably be a 2000 wat rms amp.

if you charged at 16 volts, 2400/16=150 amps. so you dont need as large of an alternator, or your alt wont be running near its max.

but higher voltage also means you have the potential to make more power.

to answer your question, the benefit is you dont need as much current. higher voltage, less current. thats why utility power runs at 13kv and 69kv etc, so they can get away with smaller wires to cut costs. cause larger amperage require larger wires.

Ohms law bro.

Also a 16v battery is being charged at 19.5v and rests at 16.8v

2400watt load

14.4v = 166 amps

19.5 = 123 amps

That's a 34.9% reduction in current. This means a lot for high current drains.

It's the reason why I'm going to a 16v setup for my Audiopipe amps.

That's why I specified for long periods of time, where batteries have nothing to do with it.

I just don't see how a 200A 12V alternator, that is rated at around 2700W would magically produce more after putting in a box that decreases efficiency.

Yes, the current draw from the box through the wires to the amp/back battery would be lower, which could result in less of a voltage drop, but with the decrease in efficiency, chances are you are going to have less power at the end of your chain then without the box.

[kirill007]

We have no clue who you are.

so even if you had a product we may be interested why would we give you any of our money for an untested product from an unknown person on the Internet?

Plenty of people do it all the time, look at skar, crescendo, ct sounds, and more internet based companies.

[Robert.Stever]

So what benefits does a 16V alternator has over a 12V alternator if they both can only supply 2400W for long periods?

efficiency. and also make more theoretical power.

to make things simple,

lets say your demand is 2400 watts. 2400 wattis is V x A in dc. if you raise the voltage you decrease your amperage requirement. so if you charge at 14v youll need approx 2400/14v = 171 amps to run "2400watts" inreality after efficiency that would probably be a 2000 wat rms amp.

if you charged at 16 volts, 2400/16=150 amps. so you dont need as large of an alternator, or your alt wont be running near its max.

but higher voltage also means you have the potential to make more power.

to answer your question, the benefit is you dont need as much current. higher voltage, less current. thats why utility power runs at 13kv and 69kv etc, so they can get away with smaller wires to cut costs. cause larger amperage require larger wires.

Yes, but other then wiring, if the alternator can only supply 2400W continuously, what use does the higher voltage have? (except some amps that run cooler, eventhough there are also amps that dislike higher voltages)

But with his step up box, you will still need the huge alternator, you'll even need a 5-10% bigger one depending on how efficient it is.

So what benefits does a 16V alternator has over a 12V alternator if they both can only supply 2400W for long periods?

efficiency. and also make more theoretical power.

to make things simple,

lets say your demand is 2400 watts. 2400 wattis is V x A in dc. if you raise the voltage you decrease your amperage requirement. so if you charge at 14v youll need approx 2400/14v = 171 amps to run "2400watts" inreality after efficiency that would probably be a 2000 wat rms amp.

if you charged at 16 volts, 2400/16=150 amps. so you dont need as large of an alternator, or your alt wont be running near its max.

but higher voltage also means you have the potential to make more power.

to answer your question, the benefit is you dont need as much current. higher voltage, less current. thats why utility power runs at 13kv and 69kv etc, so they can get away with smaller wires to cut costs. cause larger amperage require larger wires.

Ohms law bro.

Also a 16v battery is being charged at 19.5v and rests at 16.8v

2400watt load

14.4v = 166 amps

19.5 = 123 amps

That's a 34.9% reduction in current. This means a lot for high current drains.

It's the reason why I'm going to a 16v setup for my Audiopipe amps.

That's why I specified for long periods of time, where batteries have nothing to do with it.

I just don't see how a 200A 12V alternator, that is rated at around 2700W would magically produce more after putting in a box that decreases efficiency.

Yes, the current draw from the box through the wires to the amp/back battery would be lower, which could result in less of a voltage drop, but with the decrease in efficiency, chances are you are going to have less power at the end of your chain then without the box.

The point is to charge your 16v battery bank without performing a whole lot of work under the hood and incurring the cost of time and labor to bullet proof your 12v electrical (diode packs fail and they dump the source voltage straight to the load, not a pretty sight). If this works, it's a lot safer as you do not have any physical way of having the 16.8-21v from your battery bank and charger allowed to fail in a catastrophic way.

It has nothing to do about creating power out of thin air; we are simply stepping up the voltage of the factory charging system. Which would be very convenient for 16v daily driver's that do exist. This came to me as I will be designing this unit not only for you chaps, but for a few of my 16v dd brethren in the San Antonio area who have expressed interest in this project.

I just wanted to see if their would be any support for this project, and apparently it goes both ways, some want a buck regulator that can handle a few hundred amps at 13.5 volts for safety reasons (SEPIC fails open and allows no source voltage through in buck mode, unlike diode packs). I think it sounds reasonable as I have built voltage regulators for 150 and 200vdc battery systems for large scale telecoms that have to handle thousands of amps and nearly 10x the voltage of your car.

I also don't want to start any kind of flame war either. The fact that I have a unit right now under test that shows efficiency greater than 90% will beat any step down (or up) that you can buy on the market that won't cost thousands. Really, the only thing that I'm having a hard time finding is an aluminum extruded chassis that doesn't look wimpy.

[Robert.Stever]

We have no clue who you are.

so even if you had a product we may be interested why would we give you any of our money for an untested product from an unknown person on the Internet?

Plenty of people do it all the time, look at skar, crescendo, ct sounds, and more internet based companies.

At least the stuff I design doesn't let the magic smoke out, usually.

[kirill007]

It has nothing to do about creating power out of thin air; we are simply stepping up the voltage of the factory charging system. Which would be very convenient for 16v daily driver's that do exist. This came to me as I will be designing this unit not only for you chaps, but for a few of my 16v dd brethren in the San Antonio area who have expressed interest in this project.

I just wanted to see if their would be any support for this project, and apparently it goes both ways, some want a buck regulator that can handle a few hundred amps at 13.5 volts for safety reasons (SEPIC fails open and allows no source voltage through in buck mode, unlike diode packs). I think it sounds reasonable as I have built voltage regulators for 150 and 200vdc battery systems for large scale telecoms that have to handle thousands of amps and nearly 10x the voltage of your car.

I also don't want to start any kind of flame war either. The fact that I have a unit right now under test that shows efficiency greater than 90% will beat any step down (or up) that you can buy on the market that won't cost thousands. Really, the only thing that I'm having a hard time finding is an aluminum extruded chassis that doesn't look wimpy.

Well if I understand it completely, this product would be for this situation specifically:

-People who don't want to upgrade their alternator and bought 16V batteries and this module instead, which is only good for short amounts of time. (untill the voltage dropped too much and you have to drop the volume)

-People that have a separate 16V system with batteries and only charge it through a charger at the moment.

Or it's for people who think they get more power by getting a 16V step-up, eventhough at the end the power that the alternator provides is the same.

Or people who think they get all the advantages of a 16V set-up without actually getting them.

If i'm wrong, please feel free to comment and specify the situation where this product would be better then either a separate 16V alternator or just a upgraded 12V alternator.

[TaylorFade]

Doesn't Harrison Labs already make these?

[Bump4life]

It has nothing to do about creating power out of thin air; we are simply stepping up the voltage of the factory charging system. Which would be very convenient for 16v daily driver's that do exist. This came to me as I will be designing this unit not only for you chaps, but for a few of my 16v dd brethren in the San Antonio area who have expressed interest in this project.

I just wanted to see if their would be any support for this project, and apparently it goes both ways, some want a buck regulator that can handle a few hundred amps at 13.5 volts for safety reasons (SEPIC fails open and allows no source voltage through in buck mode, unlike diode packs). I think it sounds reasonable as I have built voltage regulators for 150 and 200vdc battery systems for large scale telecoms that have to handle thousands of amps and nearly 10x the voltage of your car.

I also don't want to start any kind of flame war either. The fact that I have a unit right now under test that shows efficiency greater than 90% will beat any step down (or up) that you can buy on the market that won't cost thousands. Really, the only thing that I'm having a hard time finding is an aluminum extruded chassis that doesn't look wimpy.

Well if I understand it completely, this product would be for this situation specifically:

-People who don't want to upgrade their alternator and bought 16V batteries and this module instead, which is only good for short amounts of time. (untill the voltage dropped too much and you have to drop the volume)

-People that have a separate 16V system with batteries and only charge it through a charger at the moment.

Or it's for people who think they get more power by getting a 16V step-up, eventhough at the end the power that the alternator provides is the same.

Or people who think they get all the advantages of a 16V set-up without actually getting them.

If i'm wrong, please feel free to comment and specify the situation where this product would be better then either a separate 16V alternator or just a upgraded 12V alternator.

i believe you are on the right path. at the end of the day the alternator makes power. if you want more power, up it at the source.

[Robert.Stever]

It has nothing to do about creating power out of thin air; we are simply stepping up the voltage of the factory charging system. Which would be very convenient for 16v daily driver's that do exist. This came to me as I will be designing this unit not only for you chaps, but for a few of my 16v dd brethren in the San Antonio area who have expressed interest in this project.

I just wanted to see if their would be any support for this project, and apparently it goes both ways, some want a buck regulator that can handle a few hundred amps at 13.5 volts for safety reasons (SEPIC fails open and allows no source voltage through in buck mode, unlike diode packs). I think it sounds reasonable as I have built voltage regulators for 150 and 200vdc battery systems for large scale telecoms that have to handle thousands of amps and nearly 10x the voltage of your car.

I also don't want to start any kind of flame war either. The fact that I have a unit right now under test that shows efficiency greater than 90% will beat any step down (or up) that you can buy on the market that won't cost thousands. Really, the only thing that I'm having a hard time finding is an aluminum extruded chassis that doesn't look wimpy.

Well if I understand it completely, this product would be for this situation specifically:

-People who don't want to upgrade their alternator and bought 16V batteries and this module instead, which is only good for short amounts of time. (untill the voltage dropped too much and you have to drop the volume)

-People that have a separate 16V system with batteries and only charge it through a charger at the moment.

Or it's for people who think they get more power by getting a 16V step-up, eventhough at the end the power that the alternator provides is the same.

Or people who think they get all the advantages of a 16V set-up without actually getting them.

If i'm wrong, please feel free to comment and specify the situation where this product would be better then either a separate 16V alternator or just a upgraded 12V alternator.

i believe you are on the right path. at the end of the day the alternator makes power. if you want more power, up it at the source.

"Or it's for people who think they get more power by getting a 16V step-up, eventhough at the end the power that the alternator provides is the same.

Or people who think they get all the advantages of a 16V set-up without actually getting them"

​Just the above is wrong (at least I know that), everything else is spot on. A 16v battery at rest and under load is still going to be 2.4 volts higher than a 12v battery. 16v amplifiers still get around a 30% increase in power due to the extra 2.4 volts. For daily driving this is perfect, for comps I would avoid it (we are not making any extra power, we are simply stepping up the voltage with very low losses in power being wasted as heat).

However is would be appear there is greater interest in a step down unit. I would rather make a SEPIC step down as it easier and cheaper than a step up. That might have to wait until next month as I have enough work to do at my real job and my step-up module for my 16v string.

[Broke_Audio_Addict]

You said your product would take a while to charge the Batts back up so how exactly would it be good for daily driving or comps if it can't maintain the voltage?

[Robert.Stever]

You said your product would take a while to charge the Batts back up so how exactly would it be good for daily driving or comps if it can't maintain the voltage?

For the first 100amps (<-- we can always increase this current) at 20 volts the charger will be providing power (thats 2kw), for daily driving we are listening to music more than tone bursting. I highly doubt you or anyone is driving around drawing this much power for average music listening levels except when we show off

For instance I burp out a tone in a sideshow for 10 seconds at 12kw (my current system) that is 500 hundred amps. My unit will cover 2kw and the battery would take over for the remaining 10kw of power. I would simply just keep my volume low for the next 50 seconds (I'm generally waiting for several minutes to get back in the DB drag anyway) and my battery bank would be charged. If you have a low ESR battery then you can maintain float voltage for a very long time under a heavy load, without a charger (so your 16.8v battery is really 18.4v) I assume we are using more than one 16v battery?

It's a simple formulae I-in x I-load = time in ms for complete charge. Another method I could do for this topology is provide burst power (say 1000 amps for a few seconds, then drop down to 100 amps). Really, though I can make this put out any amount current I want, I just need to dissipate the 10% power waste heat into a decent chassis.

Edit: I plan on using 10 of these: http://ixdev.ixys.com/DataSheet/9eb2cdbc-abd0-45fc-9422-4c3d8305fcd7.pdf

450 amps pulsed at 2% duty cycle (we are going to be using 50% at idle and 2% at full load) per chip. Multiply that number by 10 and we have the amount of current I can sink (4500 amps, sadly my HF toroidal inductors are only 4000va a piece, I'll have to stack them), my only limit is where to dump the extra 10% waste heat.