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DAMAGED Orion HCCA5000.1D HELP PLEASE!!!


Hateblownfets

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Hi I hope this is the right section to ask everyone about this amplifier. First lasted a couple of months for my customer before he heard it make a pop sound and it went into protect and blew some power supply mosfets and we got it repaired. They could not tell us why it did it, repair took about 8 weeks.

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Then they Tell me to run this Amplifier at 4 ohm as it draws a bit of current. I said well its made to run at 1 ohm, but anyway decided to humour them and set it up on 4 ohm. We are running 4 x DC Level 4 12" Subs, a Bosch 200 Amp Alternator, 3 Batteries Linked together in a 2.4 Petrol Toyota Hiace Van.

My Customer Rings me on Friday and says volume was half way down and it Popped and smoke started pissing out of it, way worse than the first time. It did this same exact thing the first time where volume was down low and he heard a popping sound.

IMG_20161115_173100_zpsf4y9rcld.jpg

IMG_20161115_173113_zpswh3cou0d.jpg

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Can anyone tell me why this keeps happening, I'm feeling like this is a shit amplifier....Can anyone else confirm this type of thing happening to Amplifiers. We are based in nZ and the amp is worth around the 2K mark over here.....Just stuck what to do now, thanks a lot.

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The new Orion amps are to be pretty decent, the majority of Korean amps are.

As for their new 5000watt model amps I feel they are drastically under built and possibly over rated compared to their other models above this one.

Your customer keeps blowing the amp.

Reasons for it to blow:

Being ran at to low of an impedance, such as below manufactures specifications.

Being ran at to low of voltage.

The gain not set right and being clipped to hell and back.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt you may set the gain right but customer thinks its not loud enough so he turns it back up. The amp blows, so he turns the gain back down to where you had it and says he never touched anything (this is most likely even more true when the amp was wired up to 4ohms and the output was cut by over half).

Also from these pictures I can tell you the amp was repaired badly, which is possibly why it blown again.
Now it looks like it has a hole in the PCB, so it is pretty much shot because the copper traces are burned away. It maybe rigged, but reliability will never bee what it once was.

Also 200amp alternator and 3 random batteries is no where near enough electrical support to run a 5k rms amp decently.
The majority of Korean built amps from various companies recommend a quality high output 300amp alternator and 3-4 group 31 batteries such as XS Power D3100s, Northstar AGM3100, Kinetik HC2400 to name a few examples for extended periods of use. As the vehicles voltage drops and the reserve is ate up in the batteries the amplifier then needs more amperage to sustain the same level of output which causes the amps power supply to be overworked. When your not able to sustain those needs the amplifier goes into a hard clip.

 

 

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Here circled in yellow is what looks to be either a hole burned through the PCB of the amplifier, or the trace being completely burned off.

This alone will cause major reliability issues with the amp in the future when repaired.

A7wFdi.jpg

In this picture this is why I say it was improperly repaired.

The screws circled in green seen to have more wear marks from the screwdriver removing the black finish on the screws.

The red circled screws seem to have noticeably less from the pictures you provided.

I feel this is an issue is because im getting the feeling that the amp PCB was never removed from the heatsink.
Why is this bad? because you can not properly solder/unsolder mosfets this way. Mosfets are soldered from the bottom of the board, if the amps board was never pulled out that means that solder was never heated up and means for a bad connection of the new mosfets which from the same picture underlined in yellow the clumps of solder on the top of the PCB, unlike the factory solder jobs underlined in blue.
So with the screw heads not having equal paint missing from being unscrewed and screwed back in along with the solder job makes me feel certain that the PCB was not pulled out like it should have been.

But then again maybe it was and whoever did the repair is really sloppy, but then again its not something you want to be sloppy at.

k5s5m5.jpg

Moving on to the next issue.

When a mosfet is blown all mosfets and gate resistors in that rail should at least be replaced as bare minimum but ideally all mosfets and gate resistors of that whole section should be replaced.

Often times when an amp is blown you have no idea how bad the other mosfets or gate resistors may have been stressed, they could be ready to blow at any time.

It is not the mosfet that blows first, it is the last thing to blow that blows after the gate resistor, but its usually something else that causes that gate resistor to blow. Its a chain reaction like dominoes falling over.

We can clearly see this is not the case since it is so easy to tell the oem solder job from the repair mans solder job.

Pictured below is the same model amp I believe.

Lets say that the mosfet under the red X is the one that blew and all the rest in the green rectangle are fine, but at a bare minimum that blown mosfet along with all the mosfets and gate resistors in the green rectangle should be changed. For a proper rebuild of the amp however all the mosfets and gate resistors in the blue rectangle should be replaced with new mosfets with matching model numbers and date codes to ensure that all of their tolerances are as close to being the same as possible.

The 2 main parts of the amplifier are separated with a yellow line, its not 100% accurate since it is a custom designed board for Orion. I believe there are additional filter caps under the fan but its good enough for this demonstration.

jwSNUX.jpg

 

 

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Now that Im looking at it farther, maybe the PCB may have been pulled since the amp guts i posted has the redish brown colored thermal transfer tape and your amp does not, well it does on one side but not the other.

So maybe disregard about the screw heads. That alone would not be a reason for the amp to blow again though.

Also upon inspecting the actual gate resistors some of them visually look good, but looks mean nothing. Ive seen blown amps that look perfectly fine already so they would almost have to be tested.

But if those are good and not blown means that the mosfets most likely blew again due to being the wrong value, or old used possibly weak mosfets, or even due to the poor soldering job.

I dunno it could be many things and without the amp in your face being able to test them its hard to really say.

All I do know is I am really tired so Im going to bed.

Good luck!

 

 

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Thanks for your Ideas i appreciate that time and effort you have put in. We had set this setup to be clean on an osilliscope, also ac voltage to the sub terminals so we new we were doing 2200rms to the box. Worse case sceneriio was 160Amp draw that the alternator was putting back into the batteries. We have Extreme Exide MF1100's which are 110Amp Hour. They are no XS power battery, but those 2 along with a NS70MF give us 270Amp hour which I thought was a good start. I checked the starting voltage of the batteries today, an on crank it only drops to 12.35 from 12.45 resting voltage. Charging voltage is a constant 14.4 volts as i have set up a voltmeter directly off the Amplifier positive and negative inputs to amplifier so we always know the exact voltage at the amplifier. My customer never lets it go blew 13.00 volts when driving, he is really good like that and honest. I know he has not clipped the shit out of this, and once again the subs are all fine. No DC output going out to them from this amp, The weird thing is it never pops the main input fuse we have, around 250Amp, it never pops those. If there is a dead short it will always pop that, so its not on the input side is that correct? Lpl is never over half way. cheers, oh the guy that repair amp replace 16 mosfets and rails apparantley.

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Well then since you done everything right, and your customer is honest there is no one to blame but the amplifier.

It must be junk since it did not only blow 1 time, but twice...

PS: The other mosfets in your picture that I highlighted are flow soldered, something you can not do with a soldering iron. Those are the original mosfets from the time the amplifier was built. Judging by who ever is soldering skills that left big snot bubbles of solder on the top side of the PCB, they do not have the skill or experience to come anywhere near what the oem flow soldering looks like.

I know you will reply saying that they flow soldered the new mosfets in when they replaced them. So unless they have a $10,000 - 50,000+ machine they did not flow solder them, and again we know this by the solder joints on the replaced mosfets looking nothing like the oem installed mosfets.

I feel like my intelligence is just being insulted here.

 

 

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If it was an amp that I cared about I would send it to amp medics. I have heard they are really good.

91 C350 Centurion conversion ( Four Door One Ton Bronco)

250A Alternator (Second Alternator Coming Soon)

G65 AGM Up Front  / Two G31 AGM in Back

Pioneer 80PRS

CT Sounds AT125.2 / CT Sounds 6.5 Strato Pro component Front Stage

CT Sounds AT125.2 / Lanzar Pro 8" coax w/compression horn tweeter Rear Fill

FSD 5000D 1/2 ohm (SoundQubed 7k Coming Soon)

Two HDS315 Four Qubes Each 34hz (Two HDC3.118 and New Box Coming Soon)

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Thanks AudioFanaticz for all your help its appreciated. Na mate he would not have flow soldered them, seriously he would have just done the ol solder job. I agree saying the repair was not good, but here in nZ there is not many good repairers. Plus this is who Our Orion agent uses to do all there repairs, so what does that say for them. Am I right in saying that 2 x 3.5K DC Amps will draw less current than 1 big 5K Amplifier? What are your guys recommendations amp wise to use running these 4 x 12" Level 4 DC Subwoofers? Thanks again :-)

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