Power problem also brand new amp getting hot fast

[skiddy83]

I guess i explain what i have, what it is in, and whats the problem.

the amp is a Orion XTR 2500.2 (brand new) and i'm pushing a MTX 9500 15 4 ohm coils. Just one sub the other is still brand new too in the box not hooked up. Head unit is a Pioneer x6810bt. It is all in a S10 truck.

Basically I play the amp and it gets hot fast. I had the sub wired to 2 ohms on just one of the two channels. Well one side of the amp would get hot quick with in a min or so. I called Orion and they said to try to run it at 8 in series and bridge the amp. (which i should have had to do but i did just to see) It still got hot but not as fast maybe lasted about 3 to 4 mins before you could cook food on it. I called Orion and sent it back. It came back and looks like they didn't do a thing to it so tomorrow i'm calling them again. Same problem. Also why the amp was gone for a few weeks I went and bought a cheapy amp at walmart just to play till i got the orion back. It also got hot but not as fast as the orion but then again it was only 650 rms amp anyway and who knows what it was really pushing.

I have tried EVERYTHING in the world to find the problem. I have a 300 amp alternator under the hood. 0 gauge wire through out the whole thing. Also big 3 upgrade. and the ground is grounded straight to the frame of the truck! I seriously can't find out what the problem is. Since both amps got hot I'm guess the amp isn't the problem and I might try another amp to see what happens. I have a friend that has a system and was thinking of trying the amp in his truck and see if it gets hot in his truck is about my last resort. 

I just have a stock battery and the 300 amp alternator with a Overdrive pully on it. I'm only trying to push one 1000 watt sub so something is clearly messed up and not working right. I also up grade the battery terminals and grinded all the connections where. I'm lost to what the problem is so I ordered a digital meter that should be here sat that measures ohms, volts, and has a current clamp on it. Also ordered a infrade temp gun too and start logging the temps. Everything should be here sat and the temp gun on tue. I have ready that bad grounds, not enought power, or clipping can cause amps to get hot but I'm lost now. This isn't my first system i have been playing with them for over 20 years. Any input would be awesome. I'm thinking of posting this on a electrical engineering forum and see what the guys say. It has to be something to do with the power.

I used to have the same subs (dif pair) on two mtx 81000's back in the day on a stock alt and stock batt with a second kinetik deep cycle and it was enough and had no voltage issues. The kinetik was the biggest one they made back then so between that and the alt and battery up front I was fine. The voltage drops just turning on the ac. If i turn on head lights ac and system it drops to 14 maybe a little lower. When i first put the alternator on using the walmart amp at the time i did see the voltage drop a hair but then it would go back up and hold. Its like the voltage is worse the more I play the system. Like today the amp at 8 ohms got hot in a min or so playing it hard and the voltage was dropping below 14. I have seen a million people play amps with not enough power and their voltage drops on a 1000 watt amp and lights dim but the amps don't get hot to the point you can cook on it and can't touch it. I will have the actual temp readings as soon as I get the temp gun in the mail and try to give electrical stats too when i get the meter. Thank you all very much for reading this and sorry so long but hopefully i didn't leave anything out. 

P.S. Its hard to tell but I left the stock wiring intact and just added the 3 extra wires. I can out of power wire and more will be here sat but the 0 gauge ground from the alt to the battery isn't on there yet just the stock 4 ga. I know the wire isnt the problem because a lot of people run 1000watt amps with now power upgrades and their amps aren't getting hot enough to cook on. It may play a part in the way the alt is proforming but i'm going to test it as soon as i get the meter to make sure the alt is doing what it is suppose to.

[Wishuponasub]

Where / how are you setting the gain knob? Sounds like clipping to me.

[skiddy83]

the gain is half way up. The amp doesn't have the specs for bridged at 8 ohms so I kinda guessed and shot low on it. Its rated 2500 bridged at 4 ohms so at 8 ohms on half way it can't be more then a 1000 or so. The db knob is only a quarter up but the deck has a built in 13 band eq and the first four bands I have turned down negative 4 so the bass is really low until you boost it with the amp DB knob. I'm thinking clipping too but I'm getting tired of messing with it. There are so many settings. The main volume control, the 13 band eq, plus every speaker and channel on the deck has its own volume level control, plus the gain on the amp, plus the bass boost on the amp. I don't have a oscilloscope and the sound sounds clear when i set the amp. I wonder if only certain notes are clipping but then others are fine and maybe you wouldnt notice it. Thank you for your input! I'm looking into that now.

[Wishuponasub]

You could look for an oscope, or a DD-1 which the owner of this forum helped create for setting amp gains easily. Also it can be done with a DMM. 

[ShadeTreeMechanic]

You are expecting too much from that amp at 2 ohms on one channel and especially at 8 ohms even if bridged. Clipping will cause it to use excessive power so turn the gain down until it doesn't get hot. It won't be as loud but it will only do what it can do.

[skiddy83]

I was reading a document about clipping last night and I think I know where the problem lies. I took most the bass out of the music by turning down the eq but the problem lies with the channel controls also. On my deck every speaker has its own crossover and gains. I turned the sub control up too +10 which is amplifying the signal which I don't want to do. You amplify the signal it changes it then it goes to the amp and the DB knob is amplifying a already amplified crappy signal. I was reading ohms law and how the gain isn't a volume knob but instead it is used to line the signal of the amp with the head unit. All head units use different Volt outputs so thats what gain does is match it. I can use a meter to set the amp perfect using ohm's law. So I'm going to turn the radio up to the max that I want and adjust the EQ. EQ also changes the signal as far as DB's. 0 across the board will make the signal pure and original. So find my max volume then adjust the EQ with the sub gain on the deck at 0. The amp can then be set using ohm's law. 

Shade tree on a side note the XTR2500.2 is ment to put out each channel 1250 watts at 2 ohms. Thats its specs so 2 ohms is fine. Also the amp birth sheet says before it left the factory it was putting out 1370 watts at 2 ohms before it started clipping. I think the way I had the deck set was causing clipping which you could only hear on certain hz and the rest sounded fine. The article said for every 3db you add to a signal weather be the eq or the amp or whatever it takes 2x as much power to produce that. So a 100 watts with 6db (4x) would come out to 400 watts which is harder on the amp to produce that sound and takes more power ether volts or amps. Volts x Amps = watts. You can find out how effecient an amp is by using the equation. Shade tree, I will have to turn down the gain once the eq is set right because there will be more bass going to the amp to be amplified

Here is the link of the document i read last night If any future people want to get a better understanding of what we are talking about clipping and how amplifiers work.

https://www.mtx.com/library-car-amplifier-tuning-features.

Also here is a video of setting a amp correctly instead of just playing by ear. Many other vids of setting a amp correctly using ohm's law but here is the one i watched and I also watched the sonic electroics video too which is a bit long and goes into more detail and he test the amp on a SMD-1 to verify that its right.

MTX - 

 

Sonic Electronix - 

I will post my results this week and let you guys know if this is the problem and it was just adjustments. I'm hoping it is because if it isn't there really isn't much else I can do at this point but from the way things are acting and playing I'm pretty certain this is the problem. 

I want to give a big thanks to Wishuponasub and Shade tree for your guys input and taking the time to read my problem and help!! I will keep you guys updated on what I find out. The meter doesn't come till tomorrow so I will be adjusting and setting the stuff tomorrow.

 

[Wishuponasub]

I salute you for the effort to go out and research it after being pointed in the right direction. That alone says a lot. You got a good grasp on the subject also. Set your head unit to flat and set your gain. As shadetree said it won't be quite as loud to your ear but you won't be replacing equipment every couple weeks/days. 

[Karkov]

When you watch videos like that it's nice to know that all clipping is distortion, but not all distortion is clipping.  you will see/find distortion before something is clipping thus why DD-1 detects distortion.  FYI

[skiddy83]

Well and update on what happen last weekend. Good news i had the deck tuned perfect and the amp too. The stereo came alive like i have been wanting!! The mtx 9500 was getting pushing to the max but wasnt just loud but intense hard notes. My s10 from one 15 sounded like the truck was about to fall apart and land on its rotors. It was turning heads. The bad news it was still getting hot quick say maybe 2 mins and it got up to 144 and i shut it down. The guy at orion sounded like he is trying to blow me off. I like orion but the customer service is badddd! Changed his story a few times plus never called back ever but i stayed on him everyday. So i talk to the technician my self and he said send it back in. I knew the first time it looked like they didnt even touch it!! Screws and setting n the same place as i sent it and i did that on purpose. I turned the crossover up too 400 and it came back the same! Anyway orlando was the warrentee guy that lied and changed his stories but the tech gabriel was nice and said they probably hooked it up and it worked so that was their test and sent it back. So the main tech gabriel said he personally was going to test it when i send it back in and said he is going to bang it hard and see what im talking about. I told him i hope you do thats the point to testing it anyway. So i will see what happens and who knows if they give me the run around but hopefully i dont get screwed its only a month old and its been sent off a second time again today. It had massive power  just getting hot. I told Gabriel im not going to drive down the round and my truck burst into flames screw that.

 

What are some good brands of amps that dont cost a arm and a leg? Rockford alpine kicker mtx etc etc all are super high. My fav is mtx and this is the first time i didnt use their amps but they want 600 for a new 1500 and i remember back in the day i got the TA92001 3000 watts for cheaper. I see people using DC, NVX , Planet Audio, re audio, and a few others i cant remember but what are some good brands ? Thank you guys all of you for the support and comments!!

[BassMunky]

maybe the amp