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akuma4u

Custom sundown sub only playing low frequencies. why?

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K , so i had a zv3 12 d2 reconed and i was opted , based on advice from sundown technician over the phone, to upgrade parts to make the sub sound better. So i did.

So i what i upgraded were the following:

zv4 drop in with brown spider and spl cone

spider 234mm brown x 12 v2, dual zv4 coil, triple joint ring 3 inch large zv5

 

now then, i had a nice box built using plenty of port area and feeding it a clean 2000-2200 rms. box is 2 cubes net tuned to 32hz and has about 40 sq inches of port.

 

now the sub excels in lower frequencies but anything above id say 50-55 hz and its DEAD. I mean there is NOTHING. it makes some songs sound weird as hell cuz its missing the bassline completely. So what i need to know is this.. is this custom sub designed to only play the lower frequencies OR is this a box related issue?

sometimes i think i may have used too much port area and that may have killed my upper frequency response? maybe less port area will widen my response? i dunno..

i do know the x series and zv4 and zv5 are more geared towards low end bass .. so since im using parts from those subs, maybe thats why im  getting a narrow bandwidth?

 

any insight would be beneficial. I dont want to build a new box if this is a sub issue and will encounter the same problem again no matter what kind of box i build.

 

Edited by akuma4u

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The softer X spider is going to change a lot, the X series is more tuned for the low end, not so much the Zv4 or Zv5 series though they can play low.
The old Zv3 series use to be more sought after for SPL and because Sundown didnt have anything similar in their current line any longer they came out with the U series that had a very simlilar sound to the old Zv3 series.
The X series has a distinct sound compared to any of the Z series (current generation or old) and using the X spider is going to be a lot softer of a suspension compared to the Zv3, Zv4, and Zv5 so it will have a lower fs.

That being said if you are truly giving the woofer an actual 2000-2200 rms you are kind of large on the port area since the Zv3 is something like 34sq inches total in a 2.5 cubed net. So your at 40sq in a 2 cubed net and over powering it.
A box tuned in such a low region such as 32 hz with a lot of port volume is going to have a significant drop off in the higher frequency ranges and that will also change from woofer to woofer that you install in that said box.
Personally in daily applications Id say around 14sq per cube dependent on power. Typically you would increase box volume and port area to increase enclosure efficiency if you're lacking on power. Ideally you would want to run T/S parameters on the sub since its basically a frankenwoofer.
Have you adjusted any crossovers on the amp such as changing the LPF?
Did you somehow change the crossover on the deck to something lower?
What is the sub doing physically wise when you play music with these higher frequencies? That could tell you a lot right there.

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18 minutes ago, audiofanaticz said:

The softer X spider is going to change a lot, the X series is more tuned for the low end, not so much the Zv4 or Zv5 series though they can play low.
The old Zv3 series use to be more sought after for SPL and because Sundown didnt have anything similar in their current line any longer they came out with the U series that had a very simlilar sound to the old Zv3 series.
The X series has a distinct sound compared to any of the Z series (current generation or old) and using the X spider is going to be a lot softer of a suspension compared to the Zv3, Zv4, and Zv5 so it will have a lower fs.

That being said if you are truly giving the woofer an actual 2000-2200 rms you are kind of large on the port area since the Zv3 is something like 34sq inches total in a 2.5 cubed net. So your at 40sq in a 2 cubed net and over powering it.
A box tuned in such a low region such as 32 hz with a lot of port volume is going to have a significant drop off in the higher frequency ranges and that will also change from woofer to woofer that you install in that said box.
Personally in daily applications Id say around 14sq per cube dependent on power. Typically you would increase box volume and port area to increase enclosure efficiency if you're lacking on power. Ideally you would want to run T/S parameters on the sub since its basically a frankenwoofer.
Have you adjusted any crossovers on the amp such as changing the LPF?
Did you somehow change the crossover on the deck to something lower?
What is the sub doing physically wise when you play music with these higher frequencies? That could tell you a lot right there.

thanks for the response.

when i had the stock zv3 12 i was told to do 1.5 to 2 cubes and tune it around 35hz.. apparently that sub likes a small box and it did sound pretty good and did hit wide band. as for this current box, i used triticums port calculator and it told me since im using 2000rms (wolfram c2400 amp) and overpowering it, according to his calculator, i need much more port area than what sundown recommends or else my port velocity would be way too high and i would lose output.

 

anyways.. i had no idea the spider was the culprit. I was wondering which soft parts contribute to the sub being a low end or all around sound type sub.

regarding t/s params,.. its impossible to know what those are since its a custom sub. Its all guess work really.

i have adjusted the LPF so much and ive never ever been able to get it to play above 50 55 hz or so... crossover on deck has always been set appropriately..

i have never observed the sub itself when its playing higher frequencies.. i guess i should do that. So if its moving but not omitting any sound, what does that mean? and if its not moving at all and no sound what does that mean?

 

chances are, and ive been told by another guy who i explained this situation,  he is pushing me to use 24 sq inches on a 2 cube box and says i will be much happier and it will hit a wide band and have better low end as well.

 

I honestly wish i had kept this a stock zv3 and just got the regular parts and only upgraded to the new spl cone they came out with. i was happy with the sound of that sub when it was stock, now im stuck in a guessing game as to whats the problem with this one. also, I did pick up a U SERIES 12, i was actually one of the first ones,. and comparing the u and stock zv3 12s, they are very similar sounding BUT i will still give the win to zv3 for output. i mean it outweighs the u12 by a good 20lbs or so all motor and magnet and just had a little more slam to it. the U to me is a great sub i think of it as the JR. zv3

 

 

Edited by akuma4u

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If the sub is flopping around like a fish out of water when your playing higher notes then you are unloading, unloading will typically be caused by 1 of 3 things or a combination of those things. Too much power, to much port, or playing out of tuning frequency.
I personally don't like the port area by wattage method because things just like this happen, and that is why I prefer the per cube method. It only seems to work good in more of your SPL style builds where your only playing 1 frequency.  You get to a point where too much is too much and you start to lose output. Ideally you want to take the sub(s) cone area, xmax, enclosure size, and applied power into consideration when figuring out port area.

For a free calculator WinISD is great there is a graph for port velocity on there, its worth downloading and learning, or if you need something more basic Torres works decently well too but wont give you any port velocity numbers.
Port velocity isn't that bad as long as you stay under 10-12% speed of sound. Depending on the setup and how the sub(s) and port are oriented you may not hear port noise at all even if you have a really high port velocity. For example a a box in the trunk with everything firing towards the rear of the vehicle.

 

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Show us a picture of the box.

More port area will not limit higher frequencies.

Too little port area will restrict the lower frequencies at high output.( so it give a false sense of "wider  frequency response")

 

A "Frankenwoofer" either needs different boxes to test or you need T/S parameters to model a proper box.

 

It's very possible you have a exagerated low end which makes it seem as if there isn't much above 55hz.

Remove all the crossovers  and test at moderate volume with a frequency sweep from 15-100hz.


Thinking is the root of all problems...

You ALWAYS get what you pay for.

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While more port area wont limit the upper frequencies the box being tuned at 32hz and with said frankenwoofer it may not play those frequencies that are 20+ hz above tuning the same as the old woofer especially with the changes made.
From the Zv3 to the X series there is a 11hz drop in FS, granted since it is a frankenwoofer it could be a bit different than that still since the motor will have a huge roll on the T/S parameters so its not like you can just insert numbers from the 2 models thought it will give you a slight idea. 
Increasing port area even more will not get you to hit those high notes like it once did, and if you went to model both the X series and the Zv3 series in the same exact box you would have 2 completely different results which would back up what is being described.
I would experiment with current box as much as possible with trying different things like raising tuning if you want more highs and shrinking port area just a little in an attempt to flatten out the range. 
Also iirc the box specs on Sundowns site haven't been changed forever and I remember someone there saying they needed to be updated and I thought that they were working on that, because all the X, Zv4, Zv5, NSv3, NSv4 all have the same suggested box specs.
 

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Also a side note for port velocity and a perfect example is Meades Tahoe.

His port is hella small something like 140 sq inches for 4 18s, there should be a lot of port noise and his port is violent due to the port velocity, but you cant really hear any port noise.

He has even built different ports with more port area and played with tuning for the box and he said they all metered pretty much the same. I think there maybe old pictures in his build logs even but I forget its been so long. I just remember asking him about it a while ago and that is why the port is bolted in, and not permanent.


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you can try to reduce the space in the box, but i would honestly just build a new box there are a few members that design boxes on here.

Also try the old box if you can, you can sometimes get more of an idea of what the sub would like in the vehicle. I had a 12 that like my impala but not so much my yukon because of the box.

 

and don't give it the nuts this is an experiment procedure choose a volume and do a before and after

Edited by deathcards
clarification i maybe spooled up on coffee and MD

skar sk2500.1
0 gauge power and ground kunukonceptz
alpine HU
vxi65 components on BA gt-275
new build log -> http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/150642-project-d-kon-deathcards-build-log/#entry2148821
2 x-15 sundowns

singer alt, odyssey bat, and maxwell ultra caps

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K so i called sundown to get their opinion on this. The technician told me that i should go smaller in space 1.75net and tune a little higher like 35 to 36hz and use less port like 24 to 28 sq inches total. When i brought up the x series spider having low fs he said while that is true using the spl cone surround will balance it out.

 

I will do more testing with current box but i think once spring hits i will build a new box with less port area. 

 

I totally agree that i have a huge peak or exaggerated low end response like 30 to 40hz and then it just drops from there. All my low end bassline tracks (less than 40hz) sound excellent but i have only a handful of those. The majority 40 to 65hz sound "meh" with 55hz and up sounding like "yo is my amp even on?" 

 

Edited by akuma4u

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is it the actual SPL cone you have? or do you have the megaroll v2 that use to called the spl cone for a while?
Plus with how the sub is currently built now you could have a huge impedance rise that you didnt have before giving you less power on those higher frequencies. 

Which is kinda why I asked you what the sub is actually doing when playing those frequencies. 
I try to stay pretty up to date on the Sundown stuff and use their parts a bit on other brand woofers so I have a sense on how they work.
You can buy a DATs on PartsExpress for like $100 to measure your own T/S parameters, or if you have an SMD IM/SG you can measure them with that too!!
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