People talking trash on 18's

[larrys95civic]

Video from r0llinlacs youtube page

Now I have to go buy a new monitor because I just laughed beer out of my nose all over it...... I'm pretty sure my new wall is going to be cardboard, duct tape and chewing gum. I feel like youtube should charge people for filming that kind of junk.

[BFF Larry]

It's always easier to ignore what you don't want to hear. Obviously you know you're wrong and won't admit it, so you ignore me. Ignorance is bliss.

And I also love how nobody can back their words up. All you can say is "no" and "you're wrong" but you don't say why.

Anyways, I'll be absent from this thread until somebody can either disprove me with facts (not some article you read but don't understand), or defies physics.

Cowards

-OK, So your claim is that 18s can not produce the same transient response as 10s and 12s?

-That the larger woofers are slower in transitioning frequencies than their smaller coned counterparts?

-You site physics of inertia due to higher moving mass of larger cones as a reason for this?

-You also site the phenomena of power compression (which is to say that the larger cones would move a larger air mass, thus increasing total pressure build up on the woofer cone which would add resistance to movement) You claim this pressure build up will "Slow Down" a woofer.

Ok, My rebuttal

First lets define "Transient Response". In terms of subwoofers, it basically means the woofer's reaction to a sudden change in it's input.

It has been posted above a lesson stating that this is primarily a function of the electromechanical nature of the woofer, or it's voice coil and motor, and not the moving mass.

Also I had previously posted that an 18" woofer can be produced with a lighter cone material than a 10" woofer. Negating any argument using moving mass of the woofer as a factor.

So in reference to pressure build up on the cone being a factor in dampening or slowing a woofer's transient response.

- In testing various woofer and enclosure combinations, we often get varied results in frequency response and SPL as well as many other characteristics. There is a phenomena in which air will pressurize inside an enclosure during rarefraction, or when the woofer cone moves in. We also see this happen in the listening environment of the vehicle during excursion. Also what happens is a vacuum forming inside an enclosure during excursion and the same in the cab during rarefraction.

During high excursion moments and in very small air volumes, we can see such a great amount of pressure build up, that the motor of the woofer can no longer push the cone against the air pressure resistance.

This resistance does translate electrically as impedance rise or drops through the voice coil and to the amplifier.

Depending on how the enclosure, woofer, and listening environment all work together, this can have varying effects on the performance of a woofer. The woofer can indeed be dampened in it's frequency response and total output and it's ability to react quickly to changes in input signal can be greatly effected.

But it is a broad and general statement to claim just that if there is more air being pushed, that it will slow the transient response of a woofer. This is not a correct assessment as the complete opposite can and does occur as well.

Air has a "spring" effect when compressed and in some enclosure, woofer, and environment combinations may actually aid the woofer in it's transient abilities. This may also raise the frequency response in some woofers. This happens because the air will act as another part of the suspension and along with the surround and spiders, it will push the woofer back to center at the same time the electrical signal is telling the coil to return to center.

The key here is that there are many factors involved and the outcome can vary.

Another claim was made that every object has a resonant frequency and that larger objects have a lower resonance. This is not always true. Resonance also has to do with density and mass. For instance, a concrete block 4ft x4ft will have a much higher resonance than a rubber pad 1ft x 1ft.

This goes back to my earlier statement about cone materials and how a larger woofer can utilize a much lighter and less massive cone than a smaller woofer.

The ability of the larger woofer to have a lower frequency response will also have to do with the larger air mass that the cone will vibrate, and resonance will take that air mass into account.

Hmm, what else, I dunno, how about I have experience extremely accurate 18s that were amazing, and very very low playing 10s.

Thank you. There are A LOT of variables, and YES, I DO AGREE, that given the right circumstances, an 18 could play as clean as a 10, but realize that one does not exist. I'm not saying it's impossible, there's just no market for it. Not to mention it would be a massive, expensive 18. And I too, have heard super low playing 10's, and those low playing 10's had a horrible transient response that was almost 100% the enclosures fault.

Yes, a lot of my statements were generalized, simply because of the amount of variables. Yes, something made of rubber vs. concrete will have a lower resonant frequency just because of it's flexibility/ability to move. But generally, larger objects have lower resonant frequencies. And let's face it, they don't make 18's with different cone material than their lesser counterparts, just to keep the resonant frequency up. Not saying that a low resonant frequency is bad, just not the same as a 10. They each have their own uses. Like 10's in a sealed box are good for rock etc, and 18's in a big ported box are best with rap. Simple as that.

how did you figure this out?

[Kranny]

this guy sounds like a best buy installer

[JWBryant]

And that is part of the problem. Some are so confident completely unaware of how badly their misinformation hurts the community. A debate is one thing, but why waste time if you are talking with someone who has no idea of what he is talking about? Or how what he is even referencing applies, and when it does not apply. People who do not know any better, will hear his words and see his confidence and actually think he may be right. Shit, that may have been where he got his information. It's sad, an alleged "audiophile sq guy" should know better.

Well excluding the explaination of Ed who are you going to believe the guy who explains why he is right, or the guy that says no its right just because I know it. Its not really wasting time trying to clear something like this up, a debate will help the community if anything, if there isnt any other info someones gonna read this and believe the guy who sounds like he knows his stuff. And anyone can confidently say something with misinformation, you need to say something or everyone will think the wrong thing. For example for awhile it has been said that when someone is having a seizure you are going to want to do something to their mouth so they dont bite off and swallow their tounge. Now they say that you are supposed to leave them there and not do anything and that you cant swallow your toungue. Now this may be right but no matter how much you argue with someone like my grandma she's gonna tell you that shes right. She might come to her senses some time but for that while she'll say she's right, and she will be stubborn because she has been taught (sort of brainwashed) that this is right. My point is that things change and you need to tell people that they have changed and how it works or theyre going to stick to old reasoning, or what they have been taught to believe.

Feel like Im rambling a bit, anyway as far as myself knowing whats right I take the best sounding "theory". Knowledge is always growing, things always change.

[r0llinlacs]

It's always easier to ignore what you don't want to hear. Obviously you know you're wrong and won't admit it, so you ignore me. Ignorance is bliss.

And I also love how nobody can back their words up. All you can say is "no" and "you're wrong" but you don't say why.

Anyways, I'll be absent from this thread until somebody can either disprove me with facts (not some article you read but don't understand), or defies physics.

Cowards

-OK, So your claim is that 18s can not produce the same transient response as 10s and 12s?

-That the larger woofers are slower in transitioning frequencies than their smaller coned counterparts?

-You site physics of inertia due to higher moving mass of larger cones as a reason for this?

-You also site the phenomena of power compression (which is to say that the larger cones would move a larger air mass, thus increasing total pressure build up on the woofer cone which would add resistance to movement) You claim this pressure build up will "Slow Down" a woofer.

Ok, My rebuttal

First lets define "Transient Response". In terms of subwoofers, it basically means the woofer's reaction to a sudden change in it's input.

It has been posted above a lesson stating that this is primarily a function of the electromechanical nature of the woofer, or it's voice coil and motor, and not the moving mass.

Also I had previously posted that an 18" woofer can be produced with a lighter cone material than a 10" woofer. Negating any argument using moving mass of the woofer as a factor.

So in reference to pressure build up on the cone being a factor in dampening or slowing a woofer's transient response.

- In testing various woofer and enclosure combinations, we often get varied results in frequency response and SPL as well as many other characteristics. There is a phenomena in which air will pressurize inside an enclosure during rarefraction, or when the woofer cone moves in. We also see this happen in the listening environment of the vehicle during excursion. Also what happens is a vacuum forming inside an enclosure during excursion and the same in the cab during rarefraction.

During high excursion moments and in very small air volumes, we can see such a great amount of pressure build up, that the motor of the woofer can no longer push the cone against the air pressure resistance.

This resistance does translate electrically as impedance rise or drops through the voice coil and to the amplifier.

Depending on how the enclosure, woofer, and listening environment all work together, this can have varying effects on the performance of a woofer. The woofer can indeed be dampened in it's frequency response and total output and it's ability to react quickly to changes in input signal can be greatly effected.

But it is a broad and general statement to claim just that if there is more air being pushed, that it will slow the transient response of a woofer. This is not a correct assessment as the complete opposite can and does occur as well.

Air has a "spring" effect when compressed and in some enclosure, woofer, and environment combinations may actually aid the woofer in it's transient abilities. This may also raise the frequency response in some woofers. This happens because the air will act as another part of the suspension and along with the surround and spiders, it will push the woofer back to center at the same time the electrical signal is telling the coil to return to center.

The key here is that there are many factors involved and the outcome can vary.

Another claim was made that every object has a resonant frequency and that larger objects have a lower resonance. This is not always true. Resonance also has to do with density and mass. For instance, a concrete block 4ft x4ft will have a much higher resonance than a rubber pad 1ft x 1ft.

This goes back to my earlier statement about cone materials and how a larger woofer can utilize a much lighter and less massive cone than a smaller woofer.

The ability of the larger woofer to have a lower frequency response will also have to do with the larger air mass that the cone will vibrate, and resonance will take that air mass into account.

Hmm, what else, I dunno, how about I have experience extremely accurate 18s that were amazing, and very very low playing 10s.

Thank you. There are A LOT of variables, and YES, I DO AGREE, that given the right circumstances, an 18 could play as clean as a 10, but realize that one does not exist. I'm not saying it's impossible, there's just no market for it. Not to mention it would be a massive, expensive 18. And I too, have heard super low playing 10's, and those low playing 10's had a horrible transient response that was almost 100% the enclosures fault.

Yes, a lot of my statements were generalized, simply because of the amount of variables. Yes, something made of rubber vs. concrete will have a lower resonant frequency just because of it's flexibility/ability to move. But generally, larger objects have lower resonant frequencies. And let's face it, they don't make 18's with different cone material than their lesser counterparts, just to keep the resonant frequency up. Not saying that a low resonant frequency is bad, just not the same as a 10. They each have their own uses. Like 10's in a sealed box are good for rock etc, and 18's in a big ported box are best with rap. Simple as that.

how did you figure this out?

That's what this whole thread is about. Idiot. Everyone seems to think 18's somehow perform exactly the same as 10's. Everyone can stop being a dickhead any time now...

[larrys95civic]

Here is my 2 cents, If a person is running 2 18's with less transient response wouldn't said person want to add mid bass in the form of larger than average mid range woofers? The point of larger mass = less response has been beaten to death here. So if your running larger subwoofers your probably running larger mids to make up for the ranges your missing!!!!!!

[r0llinlacs]

Here is my 2 cents, If a person is running 2 18's with less transient response wouldn't said person want to add mid bass in the form of larger than average mid range woofers? The point of larger mass = less response has been beaten to death here. So if your running larger subwoofers your probably running larger mids to make up for the ranges your missing!!!!!!

Yes, that's what different sized speakers crossed over properly are for. But they should all play at the same level. So those smaller woofers should be just as loud as those 18's, but at a higher frequency.

[LoudNLow931]

Haven't laughed so hard in my life. Rollin your dumb you should go work at these audio shops people are mentioning you'd fit right it.

When I had my 2 18s walled I could do hair tricks on double bass, ill post the song when I get on my computer. I had no problem with songs going from 30hz to 35hz etc its changed/transitioned fine. I think your problem is all that you have personal experience with is that shitty ass $5 dollar tree speaker in a Kleenex box that's duct tapped with pencil holes in it.

[SnowDrifter]

I love debates... I think I'll join!

r0llinlacs:

It seems that your main arguement is that 18s aren't as tight or accurate as 10s because of the increase in moving mass as well as the decrease in free air resonance of the driver.

You say that heavier things take more time to change direction...

But let's also consider box pressure. Would it not stand to reason that at the same internal box pressure, the 18 would have more push against it than say... a 10 due to the increase in surface area? Making it change direction faster? Also, like stated previously, the huge 40+lb motors used on many 18s we commonly use (XL, Level 5, BTL, Warden, Crossfire Xs, etc) will have no issue throwing around an extra 100 grams. Let me throw this out there that I set a 5 gallon water jug on my old level 5 and it had no problem throwing that around at 5 hz... So a miniscule increase in weight really isn't an issue.

The Fs of a subwoofer doesn't matter much for anything once placed in an enclosure for the same reason I listed above - internal box pressure and surface area combined with the tuning of a box will have more of an effect than the free air resonant frequency.

And lets talk about live sound for a second.... They use 15 inch drivers for midrange all the time. A 15 inch PA woofer obviously has all the traits of a larger driver when compared to a 10 inch pa woofer and yet they still are able to perform the same task equally well. And I have heard side by side a 3.5 inch midrange and a 12 inch PA woofer and the only dicernable difference between the two was that the 12 inch driver was louder on the same power.

[412 CVX]

That's what this whole thread is about. Idiot. Everyone seems to think 18's somehow perform exactly the same as 10's. Everyone can stop being a dickhead any time now...

Hypocrite.