Trials and tribulations

[RayD8R]

Greetings, I have 2 Kenwood 12" 4ohm DVC performance series woofers (KFC-W12DVC) rated for 250watts/1000max. I can wire them for either 4ohm or 1ohm. I'm shopping for a good amp to power the pair and my question is; should I be looking for an amp to push 500 watts at 4ohm or 1ohm? Does it make a difference as long as it delivers 500w RMS at the correct impedance for how I wire the drivers? Also where the max power for the woofers is 1000, does that stay there, or can I get an amp that will push 1500 to 2000 max? Someone also mentioned getting a 2 channel amp and running it with each woofer at 2ohms but I don't know about that because aren't 2 channel amplifiers full frequency? I'm looking for Class D monoblock subwoofer amps because that's all it will be for and they stick within subwoofer frequency range. Any input is greatly helpful and appreciated.

 

Just in case anyone is wondering, because I have been asked a couple of times, the reason I have 2 dual voice coil 4ohm subwoofers is because I didn't know the difference when I bought the first one, I just thought 2 voice coils would be better than one and that 4ohms was very stable. That driver is awesome, it's taken all the poundings I have thrown at it for well over 2 years. I listen to a wide variety of bass heavy music genres from speed metal to downtempo coffee house trance and anything and everything between. If it's got bass, bpm, and soul, it's on. The little 250.1 DX series Kicker has overheated a few times trying to push it so I'm in the process of a budget conscious upgrade and I wanted a second driver to match my current hammer for cost savings and because of the performance I've seen from it. I've had it in a sealed enclosure that housed a 12" Kenwood SVC originally, but the little Kicker ended that one's life almost immediately. I did buy it used and I think it was a sub par woofer because upon inspection, the speaker just looked cheaply made. Small magnet, small diameter motor/voice coil and a paper cone, but it did say Kenwood on it. The amp I bought new but it's having a hard time with the one I have so I am amp shopping and have become slightly overwhelmed and that's why I'm turning to experts for help.

 

I have a dual enclosure that a buddy gave me for nothing but it's ported and the chambers are way too big for what my drivers call for so I'm going to modify it and am going to be eliminating the ports. I like the performance I have seen with the sealed box that I have now and I don't think I'm interested in changing to a ported box. I've done some homework on box construction and I'm pretty confident that I'll be ok there, I'm only throwing that into the mix because if I understand correctly, it does have an affect on amplifier/driver performance and needs/recommendations.

[White Lightning]

I'd suggest a Brutal Sounds 2.1k at one ohm. Good luck my friend.

[RayD8R]

I'll check it out. Someone else had mentioned Brutal amps also and I stumbled across them a few times in reading about this stuff but it didn't really strike a nerve yet but now I will take a look-see. I've been looking toward Sundown Audio, Orion, Massive Audio, Earthquake Audio, and a few others but most of them seem to be geared toward much higher powered systems. I'm just trying to make the Bose in my little Rogue sound adequate. That little 5.25" "woofer" they stuck in a plastic wheel and stuck to the spare tire wheel with the hold down bracket is about the poorest excuse for a subwoofer that I have ever seen. I laughed my a$$ off when I found out that was the "sub". Thanks for the tip.

[Dafaseles]

My opinion, 1- don't ever pay attention to the "max" wattage. That's 99.9% of the time bull crap. 

What I would do if I was trying to go as cheap as possible is maybe this

https://www.down4soundshop.com/skar-audio-rp-800-1d-monoblock-amplifier/

Or this

https://www.down4soundshop.com/sundown-audio-sfb-600d/

Or 

https://www.down4soundshop.com/machete-ma-900-1d/

Or 

https://skyhighcaraudio.com/md-800-1/

 

Any of these at 1 ohm should do you well. Just make sure if you're modifying a ported box (I would just build one from scratch personally), that you take enough air space away on the inside. You don't want the box to big because that will make it easier for your subs to reach their mechanical limits. And make sure.... double check...... triple check you sealed off ALL places air could possibly leak, not just the port 

[RayD8R]

Thanks, I will take a look at those also. I thought this might make it easier, and I guess it is in a way, but now I'm being introduced to more options brand wise. I'm finally starting to get feedback from a couple of other sources that were a bit slower to respond. I have some experience with Orion equipment from years back when I helped out some friends at their shop. I was just some free-ish labor but a couple of the systems they put out that I worked on were quite possibly the best sounding ones that I've ever heard. I know that's subjective and I don't claim to be an expert or an audiophile or to be stuck with any other label but they just sounded so smooth. Everything flowed and worked together perfectly. No distortion whatsoever and a perfect balance with the bass along with the rest of the system, You could feel the bass in the ground 50 feet from the car but it wasn't loud, like obnoxious loud. I think grandma would have enjoyed it but feeling how much power there was going through those systems sent chills through me at the time. I think I've heard a primarily Alpine based system and maybe one or 2 others in my time that were similar to those ones but they were just in passing so I have no idea what equipment they were running but Orion just automatically comes to mind when I hear a system like that. I'm looking at an Orion Cobalt series 750watt RMS 2500 max at $129.99. I realize it's not going to give me that $10,000 system feel but I'm definitely interested in giving it a shot.

Any input on capacitors? Do I need one or should I run one? If so, what type and brands are any good? I've been reading some mixed feelings and reviews on them, of course, mostly the inexpensive ones.

Also any reason why I shouldn't use a circuit breaker instead of a fuse? I have one in use on my current set up but it's only 8ga wire with a 30amp breaker running a 250watt Kicker mono for my single 12. I know I'll need to upgrade all that for the new amp too. Looks like it will be 4ga for this one. Not sure on fuse/cb size yet though. going to take the meter out at lunch today and see what the car is putting out for amps. Last check it was 13.8 a couple of months ago when I got my battery checked at Interstate.

[Dafaseles]

Orion isn't what it used to be. That being said, that perfect sound you remember consists of about 20% equipment, 80% the install. An enclosure built specifically for the specs of the subwoofer being used and an attention to detail are the number 1 things in making an install sound good. Not so much the equipment. 

If you're going with an amplifie that's less than 1000 watts, most of the time you can get away with not upgrading your electrical. Yeah, you'll have to up the size of the cable like you said, but no need for a new alternator or battery. Although, a decent, high ah (amp hour) AGM wouldn't hurt. 

You can use a circuit breaker if you feel more comfortable or just fuse it. Really, both are safe. 

[RayD8R]

16 hours ago, White Lightning said:

I'd suggest a Brutal Sounds 2.1k at one ohm. Good luck my friend.

I think this, although an awesome amp, would absolutely shred my Kenwoods to particles lol. It's also out of stock and out of my current budget. I could probably go $300 max and that's hoping that I can get a few bucks for my little kicker DX-250.1. I have a Kicker 10" in one of their small sealed enclosures I can throw with it and hopefully get like a hundred for. I actually have that hooked up in the car today hoping to get the attention of one of the kids on the jobsite but nobody's biting. They're all broke... And they have shifty red half open glossy eyes so I can figure out what they spend their cash on lol.

[RayD8R]

The charging circuit for the car is still at 13.8-14.1 while its running with nothing drawing besides what it takes to idle, I shut everything I have control over off. I'm trying to make up my mind on the amp, I have to figure it out tonight in order to get one here by Sat. if I order one from Amazon. I'm really into that Sundown SFB-600D amp. It's $50 less on Amazon. Is there any difference between that and the one in the link besides the color and a $50 signature and sticker? I'm normally all about supporting the local guy but he can't get it here by Sat. I also ordered a bunch of the other stuff I'm going to have here Sat as well. I ordered a 2 farad capacitor whether I need it or not, just in case, a dist. block 4ga in to dual 4ga out and a 150amp circuit breaker. I am having a difficult time with 100% copper wire though. I can get 4ga welding wire though, is that as good or better?

I like the Machete amp a lot also but I feel it would tear my woofers apart much the same as the one that WhiteLighning suggested. I have also decided that I'm going to start from scratch with a box build because after trying to remove some of the "carpeting" that's on this B-Box and considering the work I'll have to do to get it to the volume I need, it just don't seem worth it at all. I can't find white birch plywood around here anywhere, I can get white oak at $80 for 1/2 a sheet (2x8x3/4) but I didn't see that among the preferred wood types in any of my reading. I can however get MDF at a little over $40 for a full 4x8x3/4 sheet so I'm at the drawing table with my calculator and both Crutchfield and Kicker box building guides open trying to work the numbers and come up with some dimensions to find out what I'll need. This could take a few unless any of you have any pre made plans that you're willing to share. I'm still leaning toward the sealed enclosure just because I like the way it has performed and sounded with my single and what I'm doing here is just adding another of the exact same driver. It specs for a 1.25 cubic foot volume but doesn't list any particular dimensions. The one I have it in now is 24"w/13"h/7"d inside dimensions which makes it a bit over 1.3. I can't just double the width of the one I have because it wouldn't fit in the cargo area of my Rogue. I can go taller and/or deeper though.

[RayD8R]

I have 42" of usable flat deck mount space across the cargo area between the interior plastic molded panels that contour the inner wheel well shape so I used that as a basis and came up with 42"w/15"h/6.8"d so it will be 2 " taller but that still keeps it below the top of the rear seat backs and doesn't take up any more cargo area in "front" of it. I have it now oriented to fire toward the rear of the car. I had it facing forward because I work construction and am often putting tools and materials in there and figured it was safer that way in case of anything moving around while driving and damaging the woofer but I read that that's not optimal positioning for sound so I found a piece of some sort of grate or something that looks like heavy duty chicken wire and screwed it to the front of the box so as to protect the speaker. It's pretty solid, it would take quite an impact from something pretty sizeable to get to it enough to damage it. it looks kinda ghetto badass too lol But I'll have to figure something else out for the new box because there's no more of that stuff around. I think I will stick with the 3" recess for the mounting surface as it does allow for the option to mount something on the front of the box to protect the drivers without the use of the options for sale through retailers. They're either cheesy plastic that doesn't offer much protection or they look like something off the front of a mad max truck. Which is also ghetto badass! I may still be able to get this done on less of a budget than I was planning for come this winter and getting it done now because we never really know what things will be like in 6 months. I could be on my ass broke, but I'll have my )))bass(((

[Dafaseles]

2 hours ago, RayD8R said:

The charging circuit for the car is still at 13.8-14.1 while its running with nothing drawing besides what it takes to idle, I shut everything I have control over off. I'm trying to make up my mind on the amp, I have to figure it out tonight in order to get one here by Sat. if I order one from Amazon. I'm really into that Sundown SFB-600D amp. It's $50 less on Amazon. Is there any difference between that and the one in the link besides the color and a $50 signature and sticker? I'm normally all about supporting the local guy but he can't get it here by Sat. I also ordered a bunch of the other stuff I'm going to have here Sat as well. I ordered a 2 farad capacitor whether I need it or not, just in case, a dist. block 4ga in to dual 4ga out and a 150amp circuit breaker. I am having a difficult time with 100% copper wire though. I can get 4ga welding wire though, is that as good or better?

I like the Machete amp a lot also but I feel it would tear my woofers apart much the same as the one that WhiteLighning suggested. I have also decided that I'm going to start from scratch with a box build because after trying to remove some of the "carpeting" that's on this B-Box and considering the work I'll have to do to get it to the volume I need, it just don't seem worth it at all. I can't find white birch plywood around here anywhere, I can get white oak at $80 for 1/2 a sheet (2x8x3/4) but I didn't see that among the preferred wood types in any of my reading. I can however get MDF at a little over $40 for a full 4x8x3/4 sheet so I'm at the drawing table with my calculator and both Crutchfield and Kicker box building guides open trying to work the numbers and come up with some dimensions to find out what I'll need. This could take a few unless any of you have any pre made plans that you're willing to share. I'm still leaning toward the sealed enclosure just because I like the way it has performed and sounded with my single and what I'm doing here is just adding another of the exact same driver. It specs for a 1.25 cubic foot volume but doesn't list any particular dimensions. The one I have it in now is 24"w/13"h/7"d inside dimensions which makes it a bit over 1.3. I can't just double the width of the one I have because it wouldn't fit in the cargo area of my Rogue. I can go taller and/or deeper though.

The 13.8-14.1 charging is normal for most warm alternators. My mechman even will do that. When is cold or the VRC senses the battery needs to be charged, I get up to 15.3, when it gets warm and isn't needed as much, it'll drop to 14.8. 

Ordering things on Amazon is ok, just make sure it's coming from a reputable 3rd party. Make sure you're getting something authentic. The color should not be different. They only come in 1 color. 

No need for a cap. All they are is one more thing that can potentially go wrong. I always recommend against them. 

Quality welding wire is 100% copper, but there are 2 differences between car audio cable and welding wire. One is, like I said, welding wire is 100% copper, but good car audio cable is oxygen free cooper (OFC). It's made in an oxygen free environment which makes it last longer and be more conductive than just regular pure copper. The other difference is that car audio cable is usually twice the size as welding cable. Welding cable goes strictly by the American Wire Gauge standard (AWG) and car audio cable has gone away from it. 1/0 car audio cable is about the size of 2/0 welding cable, and so on. Obviously, the more stands, the more conductive. Plenty of people use welding cable though, just be aware it's not as big, and the amount of amps that it can handle is lower. If you plan to use welding cable, you might want to consider 1/0 to dual 4 awg distro block. Verify how many amps the welding cable you want to use can handle, then calculate how much your amplifiers need. Just double check. 

As far as the enclosure goes, if you have to go up or deeper to get your inside cubic feet needed, do it. If you liked how 1 sounded in just under 1.3 cubic feet, all you need is to do is make an enclosure for just under 2.6 cubic feet. However you can. Or, if you're open to trusting someone to make it sound the best it can and maybe trying something a little different, maybe if you ask on this forum nicely in the enclosure section, someone will design one for you to build. 

A far a the wood goes, I've only ever heard of people using Baltic Birch and MDF, but I'm far from an enclosure expert.