People talking trash on 18's

[TeamHT]

The way I look at it is 18" are good for demos, shows and high TL numbers. Also good for hair tricks and air movement.

10's are good for bass your car is missing.

The reason shops offer 10's and 12's is simply because most people who come there are looking for extra bass their car is missing. 95% of them won't attend shows or try to blow their windshield out.

Personally, if I had a chance I would run 18's

No, no, and no. But one of the biggest reasons shops do not sell a plethora of 18"s is because of supply and demand. Same reason why they don't carry a lot of 8"s. 15"s are more than big enough for the average consumer with daily needs hardly ever needing the massive cone area we bassheads need and desire.

[Sanitarium]

I didn't read this whole thread but...

Did some try to throw out physics on page 3 like they're smart or something.....

And then say that the momentum of changing frequencies of sound waves would be slower?

Really?

I mean ... fucking really?

You do know that all a sub does during ANY frequency is change from a forward to a back momentum continuously and for it to change from 65 to 85 hz and back wouldn't amount to... well anything, cause it's already continuously changing dierction... is it gonna go left and right on 65 and up and down on 85? really?

no i mean ..... really? are you that fucking stupid?

[OrionStang]

I didn't read this whole thread but...

Did some try to throw out physics on page 3 like they're smart or something.....

And then say that the momentum of changing frequencies of sound waves would be slower?

Really?

I mean ... fucking really?

You do know that all a sub does during ANY frequency is change from a forward to a back momentum continuously and for it to change from 65 to 85 hz and back wouldn't amount to... well anything, cause it's already continuously changing dierction... is it gonna go left and right on 65 and up and down on 85? really?

no i mean ..... really? are you that fucking stupid?

Yes, Sani. Yes he is.

[HHR Ed]

It's always easier to ignore what you don't want to hear. Obviously you know you're wrong and won't admit it, so you ignore me. Ignorance is bliss.

And I also love how nobody can back their words up. All you can say is "no" and "you're wrong" but you don't say why.

Anyways, I'll be absent from this thread until somebody can either disprove me with facts (not some article you read but don't understand), or defies physics.

Cowards

-OK, So your claim is that 18s can not produce the same transient response as 10s and 12s?

-That the larger woofers are slower in transitioning frequencies than their smaller coned counterparts?

-You site physics of inertia due to higher moving mass of larger cones as a reason for this?

-You also site the phenomena of power compression (which is to say that the larger cones would move a larger air mass, thus increasing total pressure build up on the woofer cone which would add resistance to movement) You claim this pressure build up will "Slow Down" a woofer.

Ok, My rebuttal

First lets define "Transient Response". In terms of subwoofers, it basically means the woofer's reaction to a sudden change in it's input.

It has been posted above a lesson stating that this is primarily a function of the electromechanical nature of the woofer, or it's voice coil and motor, and not the moving mass.

Also I had previously posted that an 18" woofer can be produced with a lighter cone material than a 10" woofer. Negating any argument using moving mass of the woofer as a factor.

So in reference to pressure build up on the cone being a factor in dampening or slowing a woofer's transient response.

- In testing various woofer and enclosure combinations, we often get varied results in frequency response and SPL as well as many other characteristics. There is a phenomena in which air will pressurize inside an enclosure during rarefraction, or when the woofer cone moves in. We also see this happen in the listening environment of the vehicle during excursion. Also what happens is a vacuum forming inside an enclosure during excursion and the same in the cab during rarefraction.

During high excursion moments and in very small air volumes, we can see such a great amount of pressure build up, that the motor of the woofer can no longer push the cone against the air pressure resistance.

This resistance does translate electrically as impedance rise or drops through the voice coil and to the amplifier.

Depending on how the enclosure, woofer, and listening environment all work together, this can have varying effects on the performance of a woofer. The woofer can indeed be dampened in it's frequency response and total output and it's ability to react quickly to changes in input signal can be greatly effected.

But it is a broad and general statement to claim just that if there is more air being pushed, that it will slow the transient response of a woofer. This is not a correct assessment as the complete opposite can and does occur as well.

Air has a "spring" effect when compressed and in some enclosure, woofer, and environment combinations may actually aid the woofer in it's transient abilities. This may also raise the frequency response in some woofers. This happens because the air will act as another part of the suspension and along with the surround and spiders, it will push the woofer back to center at the same time the electrical signal is telling the coil to return to center.

The key here is that there are many factors involved and the outcome can vary.

Another claim was made that every object has a resonant frequency and that larger objects have a lower resonance. This is not always true. Resonance also has to do with density and mass. For instance, a concrete block 4ft x4ft will have a much higher resonance than a rubber pad 1ft x 1ft.

This goes back to my earlier statement about cone materials and how a larger woofer can utilize a much lighter and less massive cone than a smaller woofer.

The ability of the larger woofer to have a lower frequency response will also have to do with the larger air mass that the cone will vibrate, and resonance will take that air mass into account.

Hmm, what else, I dunno, how about I have experience extremely accurate 18s that were amazing, and very very low playing 10s.

[r0llinlacs]

I didn't read this whole thread but...

Did some try to throw out physics on page 3 like they're smart or something.....

And then say that the momentum of changing frequencies of sound waves would be slower?

Really?

I mean ... fucking really?

You do know that all a sub does during ANY frequency is change from a forward to a back momentum continuously and for it to change from 65 to 85 hz and back wouldn't amount to... well anything, cause it's already continuously changing dierction... is it gonna go left and right on 65 and up and down on 85? really?

no i mean ..... really? are you that fucking stupid?

No dude, really, are YOU that fucking stupid?? ALL OF YOU??

WHY THE FUCK DON'T 18" TWEETERS EXIST!? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T MOVE THAT FAST!!!!

[Sanitarium]

I didn't read this whole thread but...

Did some try to throw out physics on page 3 like they're smart or something.....

And then say that the momentum of changing frequencies of sound waves would be slower?

Really?

I mean ... fucking really?

You do know that all a sub does during ANY frequency is change from a forward to a back momentum continuously and for it to change from 65 to 85 hz and back wouldn't amount to... well anything, cause it's already continuously changing dierction... is it gonna go left and right on 65 and up and down on 85? really?

no i mean ..... really? are you that fucking stupid?

Yes, Sani. Yes he is.

i need a drink. i just facepalmed myself a headache.

[Sanitarium]

I didn't read this whole thread but...

Did some try to throw out physics on page 3 like they're smart or something.....

And then say that the momentum of changing frequencies of sound waves would be slower?

Really?

I mean ... fucking really?

You do know that all a sub does during ANY frequency is change from a forward to a back momentum continuously and for it to change from 65 to 85 hz and back wouldn't amount to... well anything, cause it's already continuously changing dierction... is it gonna go left and right on 65 and up and down on 85? really?

no i mean ..... really? are you that fucking stupid?

No dude, really, are YOU that fucking stupid?? ALL OF YOU??

WHY THE FUCK DON'T 18" TWEETERS EXIST!? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T MOVE THAT FAST!!!!

yes you're talking about a single frequency at a time there hot shot.

NO an 18" cone cannot efficiently move at 10,000 hz.

BUT it CAN CHANGE frequency in it's effective range just as good as an 8 can.

Learn to physics of momentum versus transient response.

[SoCaLBaMF]

I didn't read this whole thread but...

Did some try to throw out physics on page 3 like they're smart or something.....

And then say that the momentum of changing frequencies of sound waves would be slower?

Really?

I mean ... fucking really?

You do know that all a sub does during ANY frequency is change from a forward to a back momentum continuously and for it to change from 65 to 85 hz and back wouldn't amount to... well anything, cause it's already continuously changing dierction... is it gonna go left and right on 65 and up and down on 85? really?

no i mean ..... really? are you that fucking stupid?

No dude, really, are YOU that fucking stupid?? ALL OF YOU??

WHY THE FUCK DON'T 18" TWEETERS EXIST!? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T MOVE THAT FAST!!!!

Theres a prototype 18" SMD tweeter lmao.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UitUzfzDdQ&feature=plcp&context=C496d7a0VDvjVQa1PpcFMlXgBSn-fokWQrNj6aYPNtMKM8ZxbhfK8=

[OrionStang]

r0llinlacs, I don't know if you're actually mentally retarded, or maybe you do too much meth. But, you are way off. 50hz is 50hz, and any size sub MUST move the same speed to make the same tone.

Oh, and there aren't 10, 12, or 15 inch tweeters either. Whole different topic.

[JWBryant]

It's always easier to ignore what you don't want to hear. Obviously you know you're wrong and won't admit it, so you ignore me. Ignorance is bliss.

And I also love how nobody can back their words up. All you can say is "no" and "you're wrong" but you don't say why.

Anyways, I'll be absent from this thread until somebody can either disprove me with facts (not some article you read but don't understand), or defies physics.

Cowards

-OK, So your claim is that 18s can not produce the same transient response as 10s and 12s?

-That the larger woofers are slower in transitioning frequencies than their smaller coned counterparts?

-You site physics of inertia due to higher moving mass of larger cones as a reason for this?

-You also site the phenomena of power compression (which is to say that the larger cones would move a larger air mass, thus increasing total pressure build up on the woofer cone which would add resistance to movement) You claim this pressure build up will "Slow Down" a woofer.

Ok, My rebuttal

First lets define "Transient Response". In terms of subwoofers, it basically means the woofer's reaction to a sudden change in it's input.

It has been posted above a lesson stating that this is primarily a function of the electromechanical nature of the woofer, or it's voice coil and motor, and not the moving mass.

Also I had previously posted that an 18" woofer can be produced with a lighter cone material than a 10" woofer. Negating any argument using moving mass of the woofer as a factor.

So in reference to pressure build up on the cone being a factor in dampening or slowing a woofer's transient response.

- In testing various woofer and enclosure combinations, we often get varied results in frequency response and SPL as well as many other characteristics. There is a phenomena in which air will pressurize inside an enclosure during rarefraction, or when the woofer cone moves in. We also see this happen in the listening environment of the vehicle during excursion. Also what happens is a vacuum forming inside an enclosure during excursion and the same in the cab during rarefraction.

During high excursion moments and in very small air volumes, we can see such a great amount of pressure build up, that the motor of the woofer can no longer push the cone against the air pressure resistance.

This resistance does translate electrically as impedance rise or drops through the voice coil and to the amplifier.

Depending on how the enclosure, woofer, and listening environment all work together, this can have varying effects on the performance of a woofer. The woofer can indeed be dampened in it's frequency response and total output and it's ability to react quickly to changes in input signal can be greatly effected.

But it is a broad and general statement to claim just that if there is more air being pushed, that it will slow the transient response of a woofer. This is not a correct assessment as the complete opposite can and does occur as well.

Air has a "spring" effect when compressed and in some enclosure, woofer, and environment combinations may actually aid the woofer in it's transient abilities. This may also raise the frequency response in some woofers. This happens because the air will act as another part of the suspension and along with the surround and spiders, it will push the woofer back to center at the same time the electrical signal is telling the coil to return to center.

The key here is that there are many factors involved and the outcome can vary.

Another claim was made that every object has a resonant frequency and that larger objects have a lower resonance. This is not always true. Resonance also has to do with density and mass. For instance, a concrete block 4ft x4ft will have a much higher resonance than a rubber pad 1ft x 1ft.

This goes back to my earlier statement about cone materials and how a larger woofer can utilize a much lighter and less massive cone than a smaller woofer.

The ability of the larger woofer to have a lower frequency response will also have to do with the larger air mass that the cone will vibrate, and resonance will take that air mass into account.

Hmm, what else, I dunno, how about I have experience extremely accurate 18s that were amazing, and very very low playing 10s.

Thank you for that, I was believing rollianacs because he gave a reason why 18's were not as good but now I read your post and now I see how it all works. It makes sense to me. Some people arent hardheaded, sometimes you just got to break it down for them, but some are hardheaded. And thanks again for a respectful post on how this all works.