Large Speaker Manufacturers and TS Parameters

[WalledSonic]

Technology is getting inexpensive these days, and large subwoofer manufacturers should afford the equipment to measure and report TS parameters.  Many of these manufacturers break their subs in and show them off, why not buy a $400 tool and supply TS parameters so that the users (we) can decide for ourselves how we want to use the speaker and what enclosure we'd like to use them in?  It took me maybe 15 minutes to get TS params for one of my subs with an IM-SG, but obviously had to put in 8 hours of playtime to break it in first.  

I suppose many manufacturers would rather NOT tell us how their sub performs, but I would think if enough users asked for them, maybe they could start supplying them in full.  Yes, many manufacturers already do.  But more commonly, I ask a manufacturer for them and then I promptly stop receiving responses/help.

I guess I'm just venting a bit (pun not intended), but it seems like an easy set of data to take in the grand scheme of designing, testing, and producing a large and pricey subwoofer.

[ShadeTreeMechanic]

For the design of the speaker, measuring T/S should be a part of the feed back they would need to know if a change in design was productive or not. If they are trying to get the correct sound then this would be important. Most of the manufacturers that do measure T/S will take the average of several new drivers that are not broken in. I suspect that the companies that don't provide the T/S, don't known it because they are having someone else make it or they are just slapping parts together. Unfortunately most buyers don't know a thing about it. They put some kickers in a prefab with a boss amp and it sounds good because its the best they ever had. lol

I think its time for Steve to invent a hand held T/S meter. Push a button and play the track and bam! There are the numbers. lol

[Kyblack76]

2 minutes ago, ShadeTreeMechanic said:

 

I think its time for Steve to invent a hand held T/S meter. Push a button and play the track and bam! There are the numbers. lol

Already done dude. Imsg FTW.

. We have ran ts specs on my sp4s for the blazer, kennys level 6s for the eclipse, the xv2s for the burb, which helped us get the sealed section down for the big band pass, and several other drivers for several other builds.

Im also lost why some quite large, or should i say popular, companys don't have ts specs of their own product, but I think I know why they dont.

Ones that have monster nut huggers on this forum even, that don't have specs of their own driverrs they "make".  That's just another reason on the long list of why I buy and run the drivers I prefer., or would run if had to make a choice. There are 2 people I'd buy drivers from and run. And 2 only. And I don't see that changing for a while 

[ShadeTreeMechanic]

Here it is. I really need to look around the store more. The mobile ap would be cool.

https://www.wccaraudio.com/smd-im-sg-impedance-meter-signal-generator.html

 

 

[Karkov]

I agree OP but what I feel is the norm is that (at least what I have seen over the past 20 years) the car audio people are youthful and either don't have a lot of money or still believe "it's good for the money" and like said earlier, a couple kickers in a prefab is loudest they have ever heard/had due to lack of experience.  A lot of companies whether new or old, big or small, just want to make money and they know these people will buy their stuff because it's priced accordingly.  It's the enthusiasts like the people found on this site that are getting older, know that listening to music is timeless, have money, want nice things for their money, have been around a while and know what loud and/or clean/clear is, and want to learn more to make their audio setups something they can take pride in when listening for themselves or showing it off...along with obviously those addicted to the competing aspect of it as a hobby.  You will find 90+% of the people here are the latter and tend to agree with you, as your thoughts prove you are too but sometimes we forget about all the people turning of age and going through the car audio phase and not sticking with it.  hell i still know youngsters that love bass but know for little, so they want loud bass for next to nothing $ and know next to nothing about it.  They would be happy with anything.  If I tried explaining TS parameters they would have no idea what I was talking about.  There is more of those people around these parts than anything else I see.  All they see is size of subs, quantity, and price...  I had a 19 year old tell me the other day he was able to squeeze 4 - 12" into the back of his hatch back (telling me like he was proud)  so I'm like well lets check it out then.......Yea, 2 prefabs with 2 subs in each, not facing same direction, no name amp, not set appropriately in any way, shape, or form, sounds like ass to me, but is loud to him and he is happy.......People like that don't even wanna here about TS parameters because to them it doesn't matter....yet....if they stick with it like all of us here have...some day it will matter.  Maybe it's different in ya'lls areas but around here there is a lot of teenagers with a pair of 12's in a prefab and they run them for a couple years then they are done with car audio, and they don't want to spend any money on them....

 

I like how Sundown shows graphs and stuff with their TS parameters when they have new subs and stuff.  Technology is great and has brought car audio to a whole new realm, Steve's IMSG etc.12's that can take 4500 watts RMS, 5" voice coils, 12k amps that are NOT $1/watt, 4th/6th/8th order and T-lines and people who actually understand them, and the list goes on.  But you'll always have people coming of age for driving, getting into car audio for a couple years while it holds their attention, and they want the $100 subs and don't give two shits about TS parameters and thats the world we live in and I don't see it changing.  people like us know better and want to see that shit.  Companies trying to sell speakers without TS parameters are shady to us and will not be getting our money, but we aren't their intended audience IMO (which i guess is what I have been trying to say with a too big of a worthless explanation)  Sorry.

[WalledSonic]

Thats what I mean Kyle, the large guys should post em up.  Been looking at Fi recently, but for the sake of knowledge, I'd like to see where the 'other' large companies stand.

I have an IM-SG and I love it.  The ease-of-use is the reason I started this thread.  Just doesnt make sense for a manufacturer to NOT have it.

[WalledSonic]

Karkov, people will get smarter if you let them.  Well, maybe not LOL!  Point is, at such a low cost, give people the opportunity to get smarter.  If they want to overlook specs, then so be it.  I would be more likely to buy a cheap sub if the specs panned out the way I want them to for a said enclosure.

[Triticum Agricolam]

In addition to the IM-SG there is also the Dayton DATS and TrueAudio WT3.  Both of which are under $200.  There really is no excuse for manufacturers not having full T/S specs.  If they really want to do it right a full Klippel test setup is only like $7k, which I think would be in reach for most manufacturers.  Or they can sent out subs to be Klippel tested for like $120.  I know Sundown Klippel tests as least some of their subs, it would be nice to see everyone else follow suit.  

[Broke_Audio_Addict]

In reality though wouldn't it be best for the advanced user to perform their own testing seeing as how the t/s specs could vary greatly from whats advertised, especially after break in?

[WalledSonic]

25 minutes ago, Broke_Audio_Addict said:

In reality though wouldn't it be best for the advanced user to perform their own testing seeing as how the t/s specs could vary greatly from whats advertised, especially after break in?

I think many users will.  However, is "guess and check" the best option, when a large company has the capital and ability to report at least ball park figures for their equipment?  

When you bought your Caliber, I'm sure you reviewed the specs that it came with.  What if they didnt list torque, horsepower, or passenger volume?  Would you still have bought it?  

And to your point, an advanced user would take it to a dyno to determine what its making, but how do you come to the conclusion to buy that car in the first place?  Probably by comparing it against others, and determining based on your personal constraints what would work best for your application.  Jus' sayin'.