BTL 18 Caught fire :(

[woodzyspl]

i dont see why people critasize fi, a 2000rms woffer takeing 3k blows something? no shit it over powering it by 1k.

think alot people are getting use to underrated subs or being able throw a bit more at them. sure some btls like setevs could take a flogging, but dosen't mean they all could. there are always bad ones in a bunch, i don't understand half the shit you guys are saying (being super noob over here) but hate seeing people fight over shit.

if fi's only problem is them tinsels blowing then if they fix them wouldn't they be perfect, isn't that the idea of updateing subs/amps for any company to build up on their weakest points?

just my $0.02

[korey_hofer]

I very seriously doubt that sub was seeing a real 3k I'd guess around 1k-1500

[woodzyspl]

i see, maybe just one bad out of a bunch, god if people windge about anything that happens just once nothing in this world would be good..

[__d_a_v_i_d__]

true.

but i seen in person, cleaned power. but give them more than rated power. the tensils burned or snapp with perfect coil and everything else. should have it as an option to beef up tensil leads like spiders or something...

seen this in person with fi and dc set up.

not bashing at all, shits where louder than mine.

[Autruche]

most direct leads still use tinsels.

my shockers had 8ga directly to the coil and it was a bitch to keep from slapping

I'm talking about 8 gauge straight to the coil. I think if some thought were put into it that they could almost do away with the possibility of lead slapping when using direct leads too.

[NDMstang65]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Induction_heating_of_bar.jpg

Just so you know, the tinsel is not the part receiving the induction heating, and again, microwaves are not being created in sufficient amount to cause the heating you are describing, otherwise you would be dead by now.

That said I agree on the baskets and lead slap issues.

Why does the tinsel lead get so hot that it starts to glow then?

Depending on the manufacturer it's either on the positive, or negative..regardless of how it is wired.

Which is where the A6000Gti comes into play. You can take the EXACT same current and voltage on a 16 lead setup and never..ever..ever get the lead hot. Pop it on one of the wonderful class D amplifiers say zenon based, get the same amount of voltage and current out of that amplifier, and the tinsel lead gets significantly hotter.

Ohms law says that power is the same at this point as watts is watts..and it should be the same amount of heat, so what is going on? Why is the switching amplifier inducing more heat than the big A/B amp?

[NDMstang65]

You do not need a magnetron to create microwaves...

what is being said is that because the Korean Amps increase the switching frequency on it creates microwaves because the amplifier is switching at such a high speed it is same frequency of a microwave causing it to travel to the tinsel and fry them. If the Korean amps did not switch at such a high frequency to make more power than they should, this problem would not be present.

We know what is being said. We have heard this bullshit imaginary excuse before. While this may be good enough for some, I will not accept this in the name of science, common sense, and the will to pursue truth and stop individuals/manufacturers who provide products to to the free consumer market without the integtrity of accountability and responsibility.

Let us not forget, that the 100k frequency range is not considered microwave by any electrical engineers and you see how fast nick dropped his theory when he was called on it. It is those pesky flat tinsels that are suffering from induction heating!!!!! Sure... Let's discuss this further...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Induction_heating_of_bar.jpg

Just so you know, the tinsel is not the part receiving the induction heating, and again, microwaves are not being created in sufficient amount to cause the heating you are describing, otherwise you would be dead by now.

That said I agree on the baskets and lead slap issues.

You beat me to it. I love this guy! Pure and simple: Induction is the transferrance of energy through lines of electro-magnetic flux that are emulating AROUND a wire carrying current... This wire must be wound, bound, or wrapped around within a magnetically permeable object to heat it by way of these induced lines of magnetic energy. In the most effective cases, an AC voltage which has collapsing lines of flux due to phase reversal. Depending on the density of material and application, higher frequency is more effective. The tinsel is the wire carrying current. It is NOT a permeable core and does not apply to the induction theory. Strike two, Nick. Bring some better science next time.

It should be no big deal for you to jump to a new theory since you dropped the fake "microwaving" one so fast.

I like this VOPA guy.

I disagree with nick. You're blaming your parts failing on amplifiers that get used VERY REGULARLY, and have caused no problems for me and MANY other people.

Thank you, sir. I am often unappreciated as well as under-appreciated. I can't stand a "bullshit artist." They profit off of lies and twisting the truths founded by hardworking intellegent contributors to society.

I have put over 60+ amps thru my single 15" BTL, I have never had any tinsel issues.

Respecfully, congratulations, but that says nothing in the name of science or objectivity.

Secondly, the problems arise over extended use periods invloving heat and stress. I have had a pair of subs that I have been over rms'ing for 8 years and they are still fine. Does that make them the best subs, great, or the most reliable? No. Most subjective users would say yes.

To all those that keep hollering abuse, misuses, overpowering, ect. please remember he was running this sub at 1.4 ohm DCR and the coil shows no sign of heat, harmfull clipping, abuse, or anything of the sorts.

Yes, user error is always a factor in EVERY equation, and good products take that into consideration in the design phase.

Fi, the public demands answers. Nick has struck out twice. Enlighten us.

If it is bullshit excuse, please prove it wrong..what is happening...because I would love to raise the DAF even more.

If you know..please, educate me since I'm the so called "village idiot"

edit/ps.

your 'flux loop' is the actual coil itself..the tinsel is connected to the coil and it gives it the flux path...we've also got back EMF and other things that are going on as well that shoots electrons back up the coil and into the tinsel lead...assuming you are familiar with what litz wire is right? Why are transformers wound out of litz wire? Skinning effect perhaps due to high frequency resonance?

[Team_DC-Derrick]

sooooo im not going to read through the 6 pages of BS.. but did any one ask how this dude set his gains?

if no one asked, for all we know he could have set it by ear, and unless your hearing is super sensitive... he could have been clipping the shit out of it....

and all honesty.. nick is one of if not the smartest guy on the forum... dunno how you are going to try to argue with him...

[VOPA]

You do not need a magnetron to create microwaves...

what is being said is that because the Korean Amps increase the switching frequency on it creates microwaves because the amplifier is switching at such a high speed it is same frequency of a microwave causing it to travel to the tinsel and fry them. If the Korean amps did not switch at such a high frequency to make more power than they should, this problem would not be present.

We know what is being said. We have heard this bullshit imaginary excuse before. While this may be good enough for some, I will not accept this in the name of science, common sense, and the will to pursue truth and stop individuals/manufacturers who provide products to to the free consumer market without the integtrity of accountability and responsibility.

Let us not forget, that the 100k frequency range is not considered microwave by any electrical engineers and you see how fast nick dropped his theory when he was called on it. It is those pesky flat tinsels that are suffering from induction heating!!!!! Sure... Let's discuss this further...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Induction_heating_of_bar.jpg

Just so you know, the tinsel is not the part receiving the induction heating, and again, microwaves are not being created in sufficient amount to cause the heating you are describing, otherwise you would be dead by now.

That said I agree on the baskets and lead slap issues.

You beat me to it. I love this guy! Pure and simple: Induction is the transferrance of energy through lines of electro-magnetic flux that are emulating AROUND a wire carrying current... This wire must be wound, bound, or wrapped around within a magnetically permeable object to heat it by way of these induced lines of magnetic energy. In the most effective cases, an AC voltage which has collapsing lines of flux due to phase reversal. Depending on the density of material and application, higher frequency is more effective. The tinsel is the wire carrying current. It is NOT a permeable core and does not apply to the induction theory. Strike two, Nick. Bring some better science next time.

It should be no big deal for you to jump to a new theory since you dropped the fake "microwaving" one so fast.

I like this VOPA guy.

I disagree with nick. You're blaming your parts failing on amplifiers that get used VERY REGULARLY, and have caused no problems for me and MANY other people.

Thank you, sir. I am often unappreciated as well as under-appreciated. I can't stand a "bullshit artist." They profit off of lies and twisting the truths founded by hardworking intellegent contributors to society.

I have put over 60+ amps thru my single 15" BTL, I have never had any tinsel issues.

Respecfully, congratulations, but that says nothing in the name of science or objectivity.

Secondly, the problems arise over extended use periods invloving heat and stress. I have had a pair of subs that I have been over rms'ing for 8 years and they are still fine. Does that make them the best subs, great, or the most reliable? No. Most subjective users would say yes.

To all those that keep hollering abuse, misuses, overpowering, ect. please remember he was running this sub at 1.4 ohm DCR and the coil shows no sign of heat, harmfull clipping, abuse, or anything of the sorts.

Yes, user error is always a factor in EVERY equation, and good products take that into consideration in the design phase.

Fi, the public demands answers. Nick has struck out twice. Enlighten us.

If it is bullshit excuse, please prove it wrong..what is happening...because I would love to raise the DAF even more.

If you know..please, educate me since I'm the so called "village idiot"

edit/ps.

your 'flux loop' is the actual coil itself..the tinsel is connected to the coil and it gives it the flux path...we've also got back EMF and other things that are going on as well that shoots electrons back up the coil and into the tinsel lead...assuming you are familiar with what litz wire is right? Why are transformers wound out of litz wire? Skinning effect perhaps due to high frequency resonance?

PLEASE tell me yhou just didn't inform the world that you think Watts are Watts regardless of voltage to current ratio! OH MY WORD. That, sir, is very scary. I taught high schoolers better than that. You have that confounding variable in your "cheap koreans" vs a 6000gti theory. Low Voltage/High Current vs High Voltgage/Low Current.

A simple example for everyone to understand: If power is the same, regardless of the volt/amp ratio, why would power engineers decide to transmit electrical power in a high voltage state? The transformer outside of your house has essentially the same power (V x A) available on either side of the transformer (considering a fused limit which affects both power delivered to the transormer and out of it) On the supply side, we are seeing possibly 6500V (different depending on where you live) and the 220V on the output side going to your house.

Lets say your output is 220V and capable of delivering 200A (~ 44,000W), that means your supply is about the same power in an ideal world, but we have transformer losses to account for. Take that 6500V and say it needs about 6.8amps in an ideal world and up to 7.5 amps with substantial transformer loss.

Are these powers the same? Not exactly. There are also many other things invloved. True Power, Power Ratio, Apparent Power, Power Factor, Phase Angles, Reactive Power, Volt Amps, ect

So this will be your third theory. It is the best one so far. Litz wire is effective at reducing the skinning effect when high requency is involved, but this applies to larger conductors and higher frequencies more than anything. How many individual strands make up all the tinsels running into the sub? Plenty enough for the ripple on the output waveform from the big "cheap koreans." The more resistance built up in the tinsel leads can cuase more heat (voltage drop and current used). Why is that you think a mini ripple of insignificant voltage on the output of an amp operating aorund 100KHz is a problem when I can send GHz signals down a piece of single strand coaxial cable in my lab without a significant loss? You have a good theory going, but don't you think there are far too many strands in the tinsels and not a high enough voltage ripple at a high enough frequency to increase resistance to flame the tinsels without affecting the "low power" coil.

The flux loop you say. What's next? The flux capacitor? Tell me more.

The flux loop, you call it, is any conductor carry current (essentially) The speaker wires are every bit a part of the flux loop as the speaker wires running to the sub, I have never seen an "induction heating" or "microwaving" problem with them. I know the tinsels are under more mechanical stress obviously, but the fact remains we are not dealing with induction heating or microwaving as you say. Induction heating is not refferring to the heating of the conductor (tinsel), but rather the permeable core or casing through electromagnetic lines of flux(energy). The wire itself is not the primary source of heat in induction heating. I does recieve some heat in a true inductive heating element, but it is mostly a secondary fucntion of what is being heated. Care to re-evauluate your induction "theory?" The tinsel is not part of a Joule Heating device such as an electric range eye, but at this point that is more applicable than the inductive theory.

Every time the facts come out, you switch your story up and lead us down another obscure non-scientific wild journey into the land of bullshit. Where are we going next?

[ALPINE408]

so how did the guy get his tinsels so hot it vaporized the flame retardent coating?

thats what i want to know all i see is you trying to debunk nick with no awnsers to the op