SoCaLBaMF Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 It's always easier to ignore what you don't want to hear. Obviously you know you're wrong and won't admit it, so you ignore me. Ignorance is bliss. And I also love how nobody can back their words up. All you can say is "no" and "you're wrong" but you don't say why. Anyways, I'll be absent from this thread until somebody can either disprove me with facts (not some article you read but don't understand), or defies physics. Cowards -OK, So your claim is that 18s can not produce the same transient response as 10s and 12s? -That the larger woofers are slower in transitioning frequencies than their smaller coned counterparts? -You site physics of inertia due to higher moving mass of larger cones as a reason for this? -You also site the phenomena of power compression (which is to say that the larger cones would move a larger air mass, thus increasing total pressure build up on the woofer cone which would add resistance to movement) You claim this pressure build up will "Slow Down" a woofer. Ok, My rebuttal First lets define "Transient Response". In terms of subwoofers, it basically means the woofer's reaction to a sudden change in it's input. It has been posted above a lesson stating that this is primarily a function of the electromechanical nature of the woofer, or it's voice coil and motor, and not the moving mass. Also I had previously posted that an 18" woofer can be produced with a lighter cone material than a 10" woofer. Negating any argument using moving mass of the woofer as a factor. So in reference to pressure build up on the cone being a factor in dampening or slowing a woofer's transient response. - In testing various woofer and enclosure combinations, we often get varied results in frequency response and SPL as well as many other characteristics. There is a phenomena in which air will pressurize inside an enclosure during rarefraction, or when the woofer cone moves in. We also see this happen in the listening environment of the vehicle during excursion. Also what happens is a vacuum forming inside an enclosure during excursion and the same in the cab during rarefraction. During high excursion moments and in very small air volumes, we can see such a great amount of pressure build up, that the motor of the woofer can no longer push the cone against the air pressure resistance. This resistance does translate electrically as impedance rise or drops through the voice coil and to the amplifier. Depending on how the enclosure, woofer, and listening environment all work together, this can have varying effects on the performance of a woofer. The woofer can indeed be dampened in it's frequency response and total output and it's ability to react quickly to changes in input signal can be greatly effected. But it is a broad and general statement to claim just that if there is more air being pushed, that it will slow the transient response of a woofer. This is not a correct assessment as the complete opposite can and does occur as well. Air has a "spring" effect when compressed and in some enclosure, woofer, and environment combinations may actually aid the woofer in it's transient abilities. This may also raise the frequency response in some woofers. This happens because the air will act as another part of the suspension and along with the surround and spiders, it will push the woofer back to center at the same time the electrical signal is telling the coil to return to center. The key here is that there are many factors involved and the outcome can vary. Another claim was made that every object has a resonant frequency and that larger objects have a lower resonance. This is not always true. Resonance also has to do with density and mass. For instance, a concrete block 4ft x4ft will have a much higher resonance than a rubber pad 1ft x 1ft. This goes back to my earlier statement about cone materials and how a larger woofer can utilize a much lighter and less massive cone than a smaller woofer. The ability of the larger woofer to have a lower frequency response will also have to do with the larger air mass that the cone will vibrate, and resonance will take that air mass into account. Hmm, what else, I dunno, how about I have experience extremely accurate 18s that were amazing, and very very low playing 10s. Thank you. There are A LOT of variables, and YES, I DO AGREE, that given the right circumstances, an 18 could play as clean as a 10, but realize that one does not exist. I'm not saying it's impossible, there's just no market for it. Not to mention it would be a massive, expensive 18. And I too, have heard super low playing 10's, and those low playing 10's had a horrible transient response that was almost 100% the enclosures fault. Yes, a lot of my statements were generalized, simply because of the amount of variables. Yes, something made of rubber vs. concrete will have a lower resonant frequency just because of it's flexibility/ability to move. But generally, larger objects have lower resonant frequencies. And let's face it, they don't make 18's with different cone material than their lesser counterparts, just to keep the resonant frequency up. Not saying that a low resonant frequency is bad, just not the same as a 10. They each have their own uses. Like 10's in a sealed box are good for rock etc, and 18's in a big ported box are best with rap. Simple as that. how did you figure this out? That... Why is it almost every rock concert has a large array of 18s or 15s in ported boxes and not 10s in sealed boxes?... 2004 Bagged Trailblazer (4)18" Sundown Nsv3s (4) Taramps HD10000s, Taramps DSP3000, Lanzar opti 250x2, AB 100x4 (2)DC power SP 270s, (14)XS Power d3100s, (1)d6500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosg_313 Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Eh....I'm still gonna have an 18in in my car even though if it "moves slowly" or because some "genius" says it doesn't moves as fast as a smaller sub. And lacs, what's the point of your explanation to physics on a subwoofer? we all know we not gonna listen for shit. How do the Japanese feel about bass?You know that since 03/11/11 Progene? I just saw that stuff on CNN. They said it makes your junk shrink all up. lol.im pretty sure the op wont even notice if it gets even smaller. Refs - Pstone11, porksoda, coleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamHT Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Josh or whatever the fuck your screenname is. I stopped reading your post as soon as I got to you rationalizing his idiocy. Sorry I didn't take the time to refute every incorrect thing he has said, or explain to an idiot why he is confused on the physics he thinks he knows, or how his explanations boil down to mass and inertia. You can not have a debate with a closemind who is so oblivious as to why he's wrong. Why should I waste my time explaining this to him, for your benefit? Hmmmm, experience is pretty much all I have. I'm no scientist, scholar, or professor. But what I am is an audiophile who has played with everything before judging it. Who's installed something instead of asking a million questions. Who experienced for himself why rollinlacs is wrong. Believe whoever posts what you like Tell me...does this smell like chloroform to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSkippyJ Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 This article helps explain why cone size is not really a factor in a speakers transient response. http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/WooferSpeed.pdf dude should read this. F150: Stock 2019 Harley Road Glide: Amp: TM400Xad - 4 channel 400 watt Processor: DSR1 Fairing (Front) 6.5s -MMats PA601cx Lid (Rear) 6x9s - TMS69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamHT Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 I think he did until he realized all of it was wrong and he went back to his personal notes Tell me...does this smell like chloroform to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 r0llinlacs My brain hurts from your incessant rambling. There are literally hundreds of years of experience trying to point you in the right direction here, and you're just being a stubborn asshat. You have the perfect personality and lack for respect for experienced input to open your own shop. Keep preaching your gospel, brother, while we put theory aside and put experience to work. It seems you have made it to the wrong forum. Try caraudio.com and see if you have better luck selling your snake oil. 2007 Pacifica Rebuild. Less quiet. Still not loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWBryant Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Josh or whatever the fuck your screenname is. I stopped reading your post as soon as I got to you rationalizing his idiocy. Sorry I didn't take the time to refute every incorrect thing he has said, or explain to an idiot why he is confused on the physics he thinks he knows, or how his explanations boil down to mass and inertia. You can not have a debate with a closemind who is so oblivious as to why he's wrong. Why should I waste my time explaining this to him, for your benefit? Hmmmm, experience is pretty much all I have. I'm no scientist, scholar, or professor. But what I am is an audiophile who has played with everything before judging it. Who's installed something instead of asking a million questions. Who experienced for himself why rollinlacs is wrong. Believe whoever posts what you like I'll find out sooner or later which is better in the real world but I'm just here gathering all the information I can so I'll have some sort of idea. Anyway Its looks like I may have irritated you in some way and I am sorry for that, I didn't intend to. Basshead-in-Training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprkn_ranger Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Theory is all fine and good on paper till it goes out to the real world and plays with unforeseen variables and is told to GTFO... Check out my build log! 4 Havocs in a blowthrough http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/187506-sprkn-rangers-blowthrough-build/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobass Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Wow this thread has gotten crazy! Rollinlacs, you have already been proven wrong multiple times, including by someone who designed subs, why even bother continuing this. You need to learn how these subs actualy function mechanically. Like previously said, the weight of the subs cone has a negligible affect on the mechanical compliance of the sub. Do some real research befor making bold statements like you are. And let's see your proof. 2000 Subaru outback 2.5l Head Unit: Pioneer deh 4300ub front stage: tbd subwoofer: Stock Fi Q 18" amp: Audio que 1200d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamHT Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Not mad or upset. Drinking, dancing, and SMDing at the same time, lol. No apology needed :cheers: Tell me...does this smell like chloroform to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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