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Kraken

ZV3 15 4th order, need some opinions

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Alright, so I have designed my box. 1.72 sealed/3.0 ported. 8 inch aeroport tuned to 42hz. Sub is a single zv3 15, amp as of now is a sundown 1500 (I plan on upgrading to over 3k soon). I have drawn out some box sketches and played around in WinISD and Torres box calculator. Do the box numbers (cft, tuning, port size) sound right? I know theres a lot to play around with when it comes to box designs. I know some people will think "Just build it and see if it sounds good", but Im only 18, so I dont have all the money in the world, so if I spend this money on building the box and it doesnt turn out well, im just out that amount of money. I just want to hear some opinions on the box, good or bad. I've designed plenty of sealed/ported boxes, but just now getting into the 4th order scene. Appreciate the help


Alpine cde143bt/ Alpine ktp445u (4x45 amp)

2 Crescendo STS 1 (on alpine 4x45 on 2 channel mode)

4 Crescendo pwx 6.5's in front doors (Skar RP150.4)

1 Sundown zv3 12, SAE1500D.

Box is 2.5 cubes tuned to 30hz.

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Your box specs sound pretty reasonable, however your 8" port won't be enough port area when you increase power to 3000 watts, its borderline on 1500 watts.  

As with any bandpass box, I suggest you make the port removable so you can change your port area/tuning frequency in the future.  It can save you from having to rebuild the whole box.  


"Nothing prevents people from knowing the truth more than the belief they already know it."
"Making bass is easy, making music is the hard part."

Builds:

U7qkMTL.jpg  LgPgE9w.jpg  Od2G3u1.jpg  xMyLoO1.jpg  9pAlXUK.jpg

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I'd consider tuning a bit higher... say, 45-47hz... the output will increase and you said 3K plus correct? I'd try for more port area as stated, IDK what your looking for sound-wise but a slightly higher tune won't necessarily make the thing not go low. 49hz tuned in my Honda goes under 30hz but I opted for a smaller sealed and high ratio with a lot of port so I got that peakiness I was looking for, Heck it's only a 750 watt sub so I tried to get some decent output (even if it is an SA-15). 

I looked at yours... and for example, slightly increasing volumes to 1.9/3.8ft3 and tuning  to say... 46hz for example might allow you to use a 10"as the port length becomes manageable.

That much port sure won't hurt as the sub needs room to breathe (it'll be burp worthy... lol... +4Kish?)

Edited by shredder2

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On 9/15/2018 at 12:47 AM, Triticum Agricolam said:

Your box specs sound pretty reasonable, however your 8" port won't be enough port area when you increase power to 3000 watts, its borderline on 1500 watts.  

As with any bandpass box, I suggest you make the port removable so you can change your port area/tuning frequency in the future.  It can save you from having to rebuild the whole box.  

Ok so I have a sae1500 but im sure that sub isnt seeing anywhere near even 1200 watts after rise and all that good stuff. when you say it wont be enough for 3k, is that 3k after rise or just putting a 3k amp on it? and Yeah I planned on making the front face of the box where the port mounts to be removable somehow so I could easily change my port length for different tuning

 

 

On 9/16/2018 at 1:00 PM, shredder2 said:

I'd consider tuning a bit higher... say, 45-47hz... the output will increase and you said 3K plus correct? I'd try for more port area as stated, IDK what your looking for sound-wise but a slightly higher tune won't necessarily make the thing not go low. 49hz tuned in my Honda goes under 30hz but I opted for a smaller sealed and high ratio with a lot of port so I got that peakiness I was looking for, Heck it's only a 750 watt sub so I tried to get some decent output (even if it is an SA-15). 

I looked at yours... and for example, slightly increasing volumes to 1.9/3.8ft3 and tuning  to say... 46hz for example might allow you to use a 10"as the port length becomes manageable.

That much port sure won't hurt as the sub needs room to breathe (it'll be burp worthy... lol... +4Kish?)

Alright, I never thought Id have to worry about not having enough room, but Im pretty sure I can manage that increase in size. the box I have now is 5.17 cubes before displacement (3.6 after), and I definitely have some more room, but I need to figure out how much more room I have. Also my sub now does a 137.8 @37hz outlaw. Do you guys think I could expect to see a 145 out of my sub with a 4th order on 1500? I think its surely possible, but Im hoping for a 145 on 1500 and possibly a 150+ on 3-5k rms


Alpine cde143bt/ Alpine ktp445u (4x45 amp)

2 Crescendo STS 1 (on alpine 4x45 on 2 channel mode)

4 Crescendo pwx 6.5's in front doors (Skar RP150.4)

1 Sundown zv3 12, SAE1500D.

Box is 2.5 cubes tuned to 30hz.

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11 minutes ago, Kraken said:

 Also my sub now does a 137.8 @37hz outlaw. Do you guys think I could expect to see a 145 out of my sub with a 4th order on 1500? I think its surely possible, but Im hoping for a 145 on 1500 and possibly a 150+ on 3-5k rms

Just FYI: It takes 2x the power to gain 3 dB. So if you do get 145 from 1500 watts, it'll take you close to 6K watts to break 150 if all else remains the same.

Here's a good synopsis:

https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/217201737-Doubling-Power-vs-Doubling-Output

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If you want a sure fired way of having a box that performs well, ditch the 4th order idea and just design and build a normal vented enclosure tuned to mid 30s. 2.5-3 cubes on that sub with between 60-80" of port area should do the trick. Not sure why everyone and their cousin is hung up on the idea of running bandpass...

 

You're welcome in advance for the great advice.

  • Like (+1 Rep) 2

Im not the one you want to try to troll. Just a fyi for you.

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14 hours ago, CleanSierra said:

If you want a sure fired way of having a box that performs well, ditch the 4th order idea and just design and build a normal vented enclosure tuned to mid 30s. 2.5-3 cubes on that sub with between 60-80" of port area should do the trick. Not sure why everyone and their cousin is hung up on the idea of running bandpass...

 

You're welcome in advance for the great advice.

The main reason I wanted to try a bandpass is because I havent ever built one before and Im looking to try something new. I also understand that 4th orders are a little more efficient  (reducing box rise) which is something I need to pay attention to if Im trying to get loud on only 1500 watts

 

 


Alpine cde143bt/ Alpine ktp445u (4x45 amp)

2 Crescendo STS 1 (on alpine 4x45 on 2 channel mode)

4 Crescendo pwx 6.5's in front doors (Skar RP150.4)

1 Sundown zv3 12, SAE1500D.

Box is 2.5 cubes tuned to 30hz.

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1 hour ago, Kraken said:

The main reason I wanted to try a bandpass is because I havent ever built one before and Im looking to try something new. I also understand that 4th orders are a little more efficient  (reducing box rise) which is something I need to pay attention to if Im trying to get loud on only 1500 watts

 

 

4th order bandpass boxes are NOT more efficient.  4th order bandpass boxes can let you trade bandwidth for efficiency.  So you can narrow the bandwidth and increase efficiency by making the front chamber large, or you can decrease the efficiency and increase the bandwidth by making the front chamber smaller.  You can do pretty much the same thing with a ported box though.  Assuming you have the same space to work with for both box types the ported box is going to be over-all more efficient.  What a 4th order bandpass box lets you do is push all the output through the port, which can be handy in certain situations, it also let you tune higher so your peak output is at a higher frequency, but you can still play significantly below tuning without the output completely falling off and you destroying your sub, which can also be handy in certain situations.  

Also, as you make a box more efficient the impedance (box rise) goes up, not down.  Higher impedance isn't good or bad, it depends on WHY its higher or lower.  


"Nothing prevents people from knowing the truth more than the belief they already know it."
"Making bass is easy, making music is the hard part."

Builds:

U7qkMTL.jpg  LgPgE9w.jpg  Od2G3u1.jpg  xMyLoO1.jpg  9pAlXUK.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Triticum Agricolam said:

4th order bandpass boxes are NOT more efficient.  4th order bandpass boxes can let you trade bandwidth for efficiency.  So you can narrow the bandwidth and increase efficiency by making the front chamber large, or you can decrease the efficiency and increase the bandwidth by making the front chamber smaller.  You can do pretty much the same thing with a ported box though.  Assuming you have the same space to work with for both box types the ported box is going to be over-all more efficient.  What a 4th order bandpass box lets you do is push all the output through the port, which can be handy in certain situations, it also let you tune higher so your peak output is at a higher frequency, but you can still play significantly below tuning without the output completely falling off and you destroying your sub, which can also be handy in certain situations.  

Also, as you make a box more efficient the impedance (box rise) goes up, not down.  Higher impedance isn't good or bad, it depends on WHY its higher or lower.  

Alright, so if I were to just ditch the 4th order idea and run another ported box, what do you (any anyone else with input) think some good specs would be? I see above 2.5-3 cubes with a ~10 inch aeroport is the way to go? Keeping the box that small with such a large port is going to be tough to fit all inside that box without a mid mounted port. That is always an option though


Alpine cde143bt/ Alpine ktp445u (4x45 amp)

2 Crescendo STS 1 (on alpine 4x45 on 2 channel mode)

4 Crescendo pwx 6.5's in front doors (Skar RP150.4)

1 Sundown zv3 12, SAE1500D.

Box is 2.5 cubes tuned to 30hz.

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I think I've also figured out what amp I want to upgrade to. An Orion HCCA 3k. On that much power (and yes i have the electrical to back it up, mechman 240(getting a 2nd one christmas time), 2 batteries), do I need to keep that port big? (10 inch aeroport, its almost 80 sq inches)  because Im going to need around 35 inches of port length in a 3 cube box even tuned to 40hz


Alpine cde143bt/ Alpine ktp445u (4x45 amp)

2 Crescendo STS 1 (on alpine 4x45 on 2 channel mode)

4 Crescendo pwx 6.5's in front doors (Skar RP150.4)

1 Sundown zv3 12, SAE1500D.

Box is 2.5 cubes tuned to 30hz.

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