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-Resistance is NOT Impedance. -Volts * Amps does NOT equal Watts in AC land -You can NOT use an AC voltmeter and AC current meter to get true power unless you are powering a resistor and are using a scope or clipping detection device. I don't care what your friend the "electrician" said. -You can NOT use a DMM to measure impedance -Clipping is NOT DC -There is NO SUCH THING as Watts RMS (though we use it in audio) -WTH is "Box Rise" -The word "subsonic" to describe low frequency audio is TOTALLY incorrect -CCA wire is NOT OK -Class D is not better, it's cheaper WTH is Class D? D'Amore Engineering will be launching a FREE education section on it's website in the next few days. There will be a series of videos and demonstrations to prove all of the above statements and more. This sport is more full of bad information than the gossip mags at the checkout stand. Something needs to be done. This bad information continues to get passed on, and our hobby continues to be degraded. I'm still paying on my student loans, but it doesn't mean you have to. Stop by www.DAmoreEngineering.com soon, watch some vids, buy a t-shirt.

Do tell Im doing over a 56 and all the runs from my front batt to back batts are cca..... Maybe you should change it and run a 57?

go on..

SRP365 obviously has no place in this debate. At least snow has an opinion and facts as to why he believes he does. SRP's is because someone told him so. I find it pretty pathetic that we have differing opinions and we need to "humble" ourselves. The only thing worse than someone working though something and being wrong is a person who accepts what he is told and has no idea why. That is pretty much the definition of fanboyism. Is tony one of the smartest on this forum? Yes, I'll venture to say so. So when he makes a statement and some of us question and provide our opinions as to why, I'm sure he's a big boy who knows how to debate his points. I've already stated and explained why the term better can be subjective. Different points to consider when you say what is better. And once again...not one person has said CCA is better than OFC. What has been said is you can and will get the same performance for less. So better for my wallet? Yes

Two thumbs up now get off your soapbox before you hurt your other foot Brad....I mean Scott.

I am intersted to find out all these answers! I'm completely a why guy! You say why this is the way it is, can you explain to me why you think it is or prove to me why fact says it is. How can I do this? Explination is this.............. Ok why is it that way, what makes it work like that, how is that fact and the way it actually is? I don't just want an answer, I want an answer and an answer to the answer. So I agree with what Finkster is saying. HOWEVER, nobody has even said that until he posted that a few posts back. But it's irritating as fuck that some of you guys around here like to just argue for the sake of arguing! Some of you guys just want to argue cause no-one wants to or has the balls to admit when they're wrong or what they believed in was not fact as they thought or believed it was. I think for some of you, Jesus Christ could come appearing out of the sky right in front of your face and you'd still find a way to argue it's not him! (not turning this into a religious thing, just a perfect example of an argument of fact, did or didn't exist, which has gone on for thousands of years) OFC>CCA for some, CCA>OFC for others. Why don't you agree to disagree until Tony proves his point? Then at that point, if he doesn't explain fully why and his results of "real world" testing, then argue the point of one side or the other. Otherwise you're all wrong, and that's fact!!

Just going to leave this quote here. From Nikon's Master Crafts-person Mr. Akria Koiso. "When you are taught a technique by your instructors, it is important that you not simply take it on trust but try and think about the whys and the wherefores. From time to time, you should try a different technique as well. Even if the technique you were taught turns out to be correct in the end, the repeated trial and error can still serve to increase your knowledge and skills. Even trials that do not bear fruit can still yield new ideas."

Hmm Amp Dyno and DC 5k= CCA vs OFC. This one will be fun. Keep an eye out for a video in the next day or 2, I have a spool of 1/0 CCA coming from Sky High.

I've heard that Facts and Science have no place in car audio.

my wallet dictates cca is better, especially when it's on sale for $1 a foot.

Do tell Im doing over a 56 and all the runs from my front batt to back batts are cca.....

Wow, if there is this much arguing over a chunk of wire I can only imagine where this is going to go when Tony gets to the real topics like subs, amps, impedance, "box rise", class D. This is going to be a wild ride.......

Sand in the vajayjay? I've proved what has worked for ME. And I've said that pretty often, and if you could get the same performance for less are you saying that that is not awesome? And when did I say have no place in the debate with no technical information? I'm saying to say we should shut up and humble ourselves people someone told us is about the dumbest thing ever said on this forum. I don't care if he's your friend, the truly humble thing to do would be to have an opinion, not a "he said so so I'll agree without researching or knowing ANYTHING about the subject matter". When did a debate about actual science vs application ever become taboo on this forum? When did we all of a sudden take offense to a difference in opinion? When did there become a rule where we can't test different ways of doing things? That's what you should really shake your head at. And now this IS cluttering the thread with things that doesn't have anything to do with the original post.

I have my own theory but im also a guy with 12 runs of ofc in my truck and im just a nobody. I have a feeling that some are making this bigger than the intended scope

Following, thanks Tony for any and all of the knowledge you can pass on. :popcorn:

Yes I will argue, not for the fact of right or wrong but simply to keep those in power accountable. Tony D has quite a bit of influence on this site and I would hate to see new people spouting off the gospel of OFC wire and a/b amps or your car is a piece of shit because naturally that is how it will go.If you want to blindly follow, then be my guest. I for one will continue to challenge

OFC > CCA. When you see why you'll slap yourself. Edit: you guys are really gonna argue with an engineer that just reinvented an amplifier topology to build the T15K? Maybe you should humble yourselves because you sound as bad as the noobs on this site who know everything already.

I've heard there's a difference between science on paper and actual application

I dont want to play with you. You make my face hurt. Nerd

You have no idea what the you're talking about. Please pm me instances of me bitching at noobs. Your statement was not, I think CCA is inferior to OFC...your statement was, "how dare you argue with the man named Tony! Humble yourselves and accept his words" of course I paraphrased a bit there. I've ran OFC and switched to CCA, so you can't even get that right. Who cares about knowing more than someone? Are you feeling insecure there? Because a level of intelligence has nothing to do with it. Maybe I'll say it slower for you because you're having trouble. I ran OFC wiring triple mechman 270s charging a total of 9 D3100s, on music full tilt on three RF T4000s powering three 15" BTLs and scored a legal 56.7 with voltage at 14.3. Swapped to CCA, same score at the same frequency, same voltage. Only difference was the price. So why should I pay an extra $500 for nothing? You say I should open my mind, have you opened yours? Have you swapped one from the other properly using both and seen a difference? If so, please share. But don't ever assume because we are debating something we are being disrespectful. And when in a debate with something like OFC vs CCA dkmt ever say, don't argue with tony just humble yourself. That shi cray And where am I l pissing and moaning because something is on the chopping block? Lol, you have a very skewed perception of events and it tickles me.

He probably doesn't need to now. TeamHT has proven everyone that CCA is the shit apparently. No need for him to waste his time. Plus since we don't have any technical info to debate with we don't belong in the debate. So I guess we should all leave now. SMH

Without a doubt. Look at how well it works out with Religion

Then you are basing this off of faith. There is no doubt in my mind that Tony's grasp of audio knowledge surpasses almost everyone on this site. That being said, people want to know why so they can understand the answer. The answer is either OFC> CCA or CCA> Copper. Tony says OFC>CCA and while I don't think he is wrong, WHY is he right? What is classified as "better?" Same cross section, same weight? What? WHY is it not OK? It is not an argument, it is us asking for the proof that it is right. These claims are all pretty exciting and interesting and I hope to learn a bunch from watching the videos.

No he gave us the answer, I just want to see the problem. I have the utmost respect for Tony and like reading his lessons However, this is a tease god dammit.

clearly NOT a subscriber.

I say CCA for runs because runs are expensive, and my wallet don't like expensive, and I say OFC for amps and speaker wire cause you only need a few ft for amps, and speaker wire isn't expensive. Both types serve a purpose, that's why they exist, yes I know Copper is more conductive, but is the extra cost worth it, not really when quantity is require. I agree with TeamHT as well I myself would put the extra work of doubling up the runs in cca instead of working extra hours at work to pay for the ofc because it hurts my wallet. I do love the fact you can 150 ft of cca for the cost of 50ft of ofc, and have it transfer more current.

The numbers to really pay attention to are the Certified and Non Certified. I dont fully understand the dynamic burst rms test so I cannot say. Some of the dynamic numbers I have been seeing are definitely crazy.

Free knowledge.

I plan to later on

Well then I say that you show conclusive evidence of any theory you'd like to prove. Personally, I think Tony D' would welcome it. Keep in mind, many of the things discussed in this thread are indeed scalable.

curious about this one. Annnnnd that's where I exit out of this thread to never look back. Okay, so..... see ya! :popcorn2:

Why would I compare 50ft to 50ft? Of course CCA will be cheaper. But it will be less conductive too. Anyways.... My goal wasn't to clutter up Tony's thread. I think we can agree to disagree and not blow up the thread

Knowledge destroys Fear

I know what you're comparing. That's my point, that's why I ignored that math. I said 50' to 50' and you responded but used an equation that obviously put your desired result in the winning category. I wired for a max of 3,000 amps. Want to do the math on that which is cheaper? Better yet...have you tested both? Because I have. And for the exact same score at the exact same frequency but a whole lot less, I'll never listen to your arguments in this. I don't are if wire to wire the OFC is better, and I don't think anyone has once stated it wasn't. But if you're doing multiple runs using spool after spool, you look at the cost. I have switched...have you? No. So...is the only reason you believe this because that is what science on paper says? Side note: I do agree when it is said OFC vs CCA will go on forever. I was a die hard OFC guy...and when I actually used CCA, I couldn't believe it. My experience and my opinion. But I guess people setting records using CCA are just accidentally hitting these numbers

Not to mention you'd rather 2-3 runs of OFC to 4-5 runs of CCA...so I'm looking at 600-900 amps vs 1,000-1250 amps...still see how your comparisons aren't analogous? In fact...they're quite biased to prove your point. Skewed data equals skewed result

Oh my god. We have already proven in MANY instances, CCA is cheaper. My setup included. And to score the exact same at the exact same frequency but cost almost $500 less...yes. I find it funny all the people who talk about going from CCA for OFC have never gone from OFC to CCA...

Do tell Im doing over a 56 and all the runs from my front batt to back batts are cca..... You may very well be. But could you do the same on fewer runs of OFC? And what would the cost difference between the two be (including fuses/holders/terminals)?

And then some of these statements lose in the lanes so....

Guys, we are going to become some really Edumacated Mother F*&$ers.

Im gonna follow it.....

Free Edumacation!

Do tell

I cant believe how much I learned from a single post.. damn..

It's interesting 1.2k did something like +2.3% 3.5 at -3.46% 5k at +21.76% 7.5k at -2.85% All in cert mode.

Well, as an update... my 4 1600 Brutus '08 models made it through this weekend.... (Yeah- as in 5 years old) Demo after demo, then did 2 Street Beat runs back to back at full tilt on antique floppy suspension subs (150.8 peak dropped to 149.7 b/c I wasn't paying attention to voltage), then did more demos for 15 minutes playing the same track at the same volume.... and after all of that.... the amps were as cool as cucumbers. At the show there were two dudes talking crap (about everyone's systems) but also about Hifonics when they saw my amps. ...funny, they didn't have rides in the lanes or even cars there with systems. Hmm. I still ain't even mad.

here is what it takes to gain DB here in your member rank - dont be spamming it up to get more DB or i will DQ you and drop you back to N()()B status also, there is a "pip" or round dot thing for which i am planning on gettin new icons for but there is one more for each rung on the ladder Forum N()()B 0 120db 10 125db 100 130db 300 135db 500 140db 750 145db 1000 150db 1500 155db 2000 160db 2500 165db 3500 170db 4500 175db 6000 180db 10000

Okay so i have a yellow top for starting a mechman 320 amp alt an 3 xs 3100 coming going on to rf 2500 an to t400.4 s is three 3100s going to be sufficient