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Wow... of ALL the topics I said I was going to talk about, this is the one that got you guys all fired up? Oh man.... just wait until we talk about clamps and how AC power is measured. Let me get something out of the way, when I said it CCA is "not okay", I am not saying your car is going to burn to the ground like all of the houses built in the 70s that used aluminum wire. I'm saying it is one more thing in our hobby that we don't need. Here is the indisputable fact, not opinion: You need roughly twice as much CCA and it costs roughly 1/2 as much, and gives you twice the number of terminations (which is CCAs downfall). So what is the point? Why it is "not okay": It is not okay because IMO you are getting ripped off. Same problem I have with overrated equipment. CCA costs roughly 1/2 of OFC, yet aluminum costs 4 times less than copper. Hmmmm. Someone please explain to me how that math works out. Yes someone is cashing out at your expense, and since the manufactures of this wire (China) are ca$hing out, of course they look for ways to cash out even more. Example: Once I was asked, at a previous employer, to test 3 different CCA cables all 1/0 AWG. 1 of them was the current one we were selling, the other 2 were cost saving versions. What? Isn't CCA, CCA? Nope. Of the 3 I tested, the worst one had DOUBLE the resistance of the best one, and saved us 30% on cost. Can you guess which one that company started to sell? The numbers I used in Video 1: DC, were numbers I looked up for "standard", "legit" CCA, not numbers I tested. The worse of the 3 I tested had double the industry standard resistance. That being said I'm guessing the situation is even worse that what I said. But I only talk fact, so I used the industry standard resistances. Don't worry real testing is coming, I'm just waiting for the cable I ordered to arrive. Side note: the "lanes" are not a magical place, and I have been in the lanes plenty of times myself. I'm not sure everyone is understanding the conservation of energy here. If you lose 500 watts in a cable, that's it, it's lost, gone. Well where did it come from? Your alternator(s)... and 500 watts/14V = 35.7 amps. So if you are cool with losing 35 amps per each run of cable that is losing 500W, then ok. Fine with me. Seems like you probably spent some hard earned cash on those high output alts to just throw away 35 amps, but whatever makes you happy. I know the guys "in the lanes" do some extreme work to their vehicles. I've been there, I've done the 3 AM builds the night before. Some of these extreme vehicles use multiple high output alts, custom built mountings, 1000s of pounds of MDF, metal, batteries, etc. You guys go ALL OUT on these vehicles. It's awesome. But then you don't on the wire? Ok 5 runs of CCA is less resistance than 2 or 3 runs of OFC. But 5 runs of OFC is way better. I just don't get it. Let us also note that less than 1% of people with systems compete. So what about the other 99%? I am going to try to hide 2 or 3 runs of CCA under the carpet of my Jeep when I could use 1 run of OFC? Hell no. You already bought a mile of CCA and you are running it? That's fine, it works. Make sure it's terminated good and run it. It's just not as good as it could be, and it is just one more thing in our industry that has gone the way of quantity vs quality; and that is the most disturbing part for me.

Back to what I was saying. If you mean to educate, educate without bias. Else you are just a salesman tony doesn't sell wire. Never said he did. well you called him are accusing him of educating with "bias", and calling him a salesman......while he hasn't tried to sell you one single strand of OFC. He is teaching you the difference. You are quite the annoying one tonight huh? go rest your eyeballs, it is getting late. This is super off topic, but hey, why not? He is a salesman not because of touting that only one wire should ever be bought, he is a salesman because he has influence. This influence he gained by stating other tech as inferior. AD-1 better than clamping. DD-1 better than an O-scope. This is fine, but what gets me is when it is said that these other methods are no longer even remotely correct. As if before everyone has done everything wrong in the past and if you don't do it the new way you are completely wrong and should be discredited. "oh you clamped your amp? psh" "you set your gains with an o-scope? Say bye bye to your speakers bro" Those two examples I am not attributing to anyone specific, but this is the nature of a forum. The one guy with influence leans a certain way and they all follow. Why is it bad? Economics. Better materials = more money = less interest in purchasing products = less participation in the sport = death of car audio Does anyone see why I argue now? Or am I just shouting at a wall here?

The 1st installment of the Free Education series of videos is now up for your viewing pleasure. http://damoreengineering.com/freeeducation.html

-Resistance is NOT Impedance. -Volts * Amps does NOT equal Watts in AC land -You can NOT use an AC voltmeter and AC current meter to get true power unless you are powering a resistor and are using a scope or clipping detection device. I don't care what your friend the "electrician" said. -You can NOT use a DMM to measure impedance -Clipping is NOT DC -There is NO SUCH THING as Watts RMS (though we use it in audio) -WTH is "Box Rise" -The word "subsonic" to describe low frequency audio is TOTALLY incorrect -CCA wire is NOT OK -Class D is not better, it's cheaper WTH is Class D? D'Amore Engineering will be launching a FREE education section on it's website in the next few days. There will be a series of videos and demonstrations to prove all of the above statements and more. This sport is more full of bad information than the gossip mags at the checkout stand. Something needs to be done. This bad information continues to get passed on, and our hobby continues to be degraded. I'm still paying on my student loans, but it doesn't mean you have to. Stop by www.DAmoreEngineering.com soon, watch some vids, buy a t-shirt.

Thanks a ton for that video!! We had a DC circuits lab today in my Basic Engineering class. Your video covered our WHOLE lab. I was really ahead of the game, can't wait for the other videos

Looks like a Corsair K90: http://www.corsair.com/vengeance-k90-performance-mmo-mechanical-gaming-keyboard.html Cherry MX Red switches for the QUERTY keys, arrow keys, and number pad. Membrane keys for the macro keys on the left, the F-row, and the cluster above the arrow keys:

Some of you guys here are ridiculous...! I won't name names but damn..... Tony isn't inventing shit for a profit, he's creating tools that are affordable to most and elevating the common intellect. He's simply stating theory, yet you guys think its voodoo. Testing methods have been WRONG for years, he's trying like hell to get people in the right direction yet you think he's fooling you.... Would you rather be in the dark and be happy in your world of misconceptions or realize there were mistakes and use the correct methods? I hate to break it to you, but testing AC electronics correctly can be expensive..... GET OVER IT! Most electronics manufacturers spend THOUSANDS actually tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to accurately test their equipment. Tony has customized some of that equipment into pieces that most everyday people can afford which is damn impressive. I have a professional LCR meter at work that cost $12k! Tony's IMSG does a very similar function for $300...Bargain. AC signals involve frequency which means there are varying impedances and phase changes. Testing those signals requires a little knowledge and the right equipment which is not generally possible with generic multimeters. Sorry to break it to you, but sometime change hurts...otherwise society keeps making the same mistakes. Whew..ok I'm done.

The system was all coming out, I was (and did) going to rip everything out down to bare metal. My actual point was to prove using the CCA would show a decrease in performance and score...to my surprise it didn't. But I really wish people would stop taking it negatively if and when someone has a difference of opinion. I haven't seen anyone being disrespectful to Tony, but more and more it seems like once you disagree with someone or something you're an enemy of the state. A debate can be healthy for knowledge and users. In audio, there is a big difference between paper and application and it's good to see how these hammer out. Can't we just debate with offending people?

the man is teaching you the difference. You need to have your pencil and note pad out. I also think you should show some respect. He hasn't posted any smart ass comments your direction. Not in exactly my direction no. More of a blanket statement involving everyone who runs CCA, uses the term "box rise," or uses a class D amp and calls it "better." Here is the thing, I am all for knowing the science and math, but I am also wise enough to know that in practice the gains or losses are minute. I hate to sit here and watch people hear everything said by him and take it as gospel. And don't get it wrong, I respect Tony, but I won't have people thinking that there is only one way to do something and that if they aren't doing it that way they are wrong.

the man is teaching you the difference. You need to have your pencil and note pad out. I also think you should show some respect. He hasn't posted any smart ass comments your direction.

I've heard that Facts and Science have no place in car audio.

A few years back, i built this PC. (click here to see that build http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/120989-screaming-fast-water-cooled-storm-trooper-gaming-rig-my-latest-build/ ). Today, actually last night, i upgraded it. I took out my beloved 2 ASUS GTX580 Cuii Graphics cards and dropped in 2 ASUS GTX 780's. The 580's still work GREAT but i still was ready for an upgrade. Check out the pics below. Also, if interested in how it runs, with BF3, at ASS OUT, full on ULTRA, with every single setting pegged, and at 5760 x 1080, then watch the video i am including in this post Also, 3Dmark 11 results. Probably the best numbers i have ever done with any PC. This pc is TRULY a beast The original cards: I still have all original packaging with receipts. I am thinking of selling them. Keep your eye out in the classifieds section soon! In with the new!

That is your statement every single time you try to argue science vs application, and it doesn't apply. Not in the slightest, even in your workout thread. The fact is, on paper we are shown that OFC wire to wire is better. So then you double a run of the CCA, come up cheaper with no performance loss...that is not "post hoc ergo propter hoc", that is actually a form of science called APPLICATION. Even the best scientific formulas have to be tested and applied, what good do they do on paper? If I switched from OFC to CCA and saved money but didn't drop a single volt or decibel from running OFC...how does your propter fit into that equation? Truth is, it doesn't. And ACTUALLY doing something has merits as well, you just would rather ignore it for something you see on paper but never do.

Thank you for doing this. I find myself needing to sit back and learn a few things.

I'm talking about knowing why different factors act and interact with each other based on the thorough understanding of the subject, rather than "well it's worked fine for me this way so far". People that think "because it worked for me, that makes it right" harm any field in which they try to advise people. The mentality is "post hoc, ergo propter hoc". the man is teaching you the difference. You need to have your pencil and note pad out. I also think you should show some respect. He hasn't posted any smart ass comments your direction. Not in exactly my direction no. More of a blanket statement involving everyone who runs CCA, uses the term "box rise," or uses a class D amp and calls it "better." Here is the thing, I am all for knowing the science and math, but I am also wise enough to know that in practice the gains or losses are minute. I hate to sit here and watch people hear everything said by him and take it as gospel. And don't get it wrong, I respect Tony, but I won't have people thinking that there is only one way to do something and that if they aren't doing it that way they are wrong. There's always more than one way to do something. Some better than others. Often with any product there are good better and best versions. The man is teaching the ideal way, or best way of doing things. His ways aren't the only way, but why would you show someone how to do something in an inferior way? I feel like I learn something every time I watch one of his videos. Thank you for bringing some logic.

Even though the raw wire may be half the cost, you also need to factor in fuse holders and terminals. I've ran the numbers and found that they have roughly the same cost/performance ratio after taking that into consideration. If you don't run fuses, that's a different story. But I wouldn't suggest that

The system was all coming out, I was (and did) going to rip everything out down to bare metal. My actual point was to prove using the CCA would show a decrease in performance and score...to my surprise it didn't. But I really wish people would stop taking it negatively if and when someone has a difference of opinion. I haven't seen anyone being disrespectful to Tony, but more and more it seems like once you disagree with someone or something you're an enemy of the state. A debate can be healthy for knowledge and users. In audio, there is a big difference between paper and application and it's good to see how these hammer out. Can't we just debate with offending people? a difference in opinion isn't calling Tony a smart ass name. If i call you a fucktard know it all, is that just my opinion or would that chap your hide? I bet you wouldn't think that was a very nice opinion. i don't think that, but i bet for a second, while you read that, you got heated. Probably wanna call me a dickhead shitwad back. Hopefully not though...but you get my point. Opinion and flat out disrespect are 2 different things. Internet people don't get that. At least ones who weren't raised to respect others.

it doesnt. because you cant put 2 engines in one engine bay. would a 800hp engine that costs less than a 500hp engine be better? engines are a TERRIBLE analogy for this. Better yet. Same car, you have a 400 HP motor for $4k and a 500 HP motor for $6k. I'd go 400 HP for $4k, then buy a blower for about $2-3k (S/C or turbo and cost is dependent on vehicle) and end up with more HP than the 500 HP. Of course, this is theory. Results may ALWAYS vary...as well as price. Anyways, back to learning. Thanks Tony. Granted it won't change the mind sets of most, but at least the info is there! lol an engine that cost more, cost more for a reason. you just cant toss a blower or any power adder to a motor with cast steel internals(if you do you have to be very careful and keep an eye on the boost).. you can build a 400hp motor and a 500hp motor for the same cost .. what will make a engine cost more is the type of internals you use.. to better help this topic lets say the 500hp has forged internals and the 400hp has cast steel.. wont you rather get the more expensive and have a reliable engine. or cheap out and get an engine that will blow up the second you turn it 6500 rpm? what im seeing here is that everyone is missing the point to what he is trying to say

the man is teaching you the difference. You need to have your pencil and note pad out. I also think you should show some respect. He hasn't posted any smart ass comments your direction. Not in exactly my direction no. More of a blanket statement involving everyone who runs CCA, uses the term "box rise," or uses a class D amp and calls it "better." Here is the thing, I am all for knowing the science and math, but I am also wise enough to know that in practice the gains or losses are minute. I hate to sit here and watch people hear everything said by him and take it as gospel. And don't get it wrong, I respect Tony, but I won't have people thinking that there is only one way to do something and that if they aren't doing it that way they are wrong. There's always more than one way to do something. Some better than others. Often with any product there are good better and best versions. The man is teaching the ideal way, or best way of doing things. His ways aren't the only way, but why would you show someone how to do something in an inferior way? I feel like I learn something every time I watch one of his videos. Then why is he not talking about silver 1/0?? It is a much better conductor after all

Are you referring to the video when he said there was a 350 watt loss due to resistance? That is not amplifier power, that is dc power along the wire he was talking about. SEE? this is the shit I am talking about. People don't truly understand and just say things. Tell me something where does that 350 watts go? Where is all this power headed? The amp. Remember the .7 volt drop difference? When does that rear its ugly head? In the amp. and Yeah I did forget to calculate one thing once that difference in voltage goes into the amp there is even more loss. So the 350 watts turns into 466.67 but the point still stands. Back to what I was saying. If you mean to educate, educate without bias. Else you are just a salesman

the man is teaching you the difference. You need to have your pencil and note pad out. I also think you should show some respect. He hasn't posted any smart ass comments your direction. Not in exactly my direction no. More of a blanket statement involving everyone who runs CCA, uses the term "box rise," or uses a class D amp and calls it "better." Here is the thing, I am all for knowing the science and math, but I am also wise enough to know that in practice the gains or losses are minute. I hate to sit here and watch people hear everything said by him and take it as gospel. And don't get it wrong, I respect Tony, but I won't have people thinking that there is only one way to do something and that if they aren't doing it that way they are wrong. There's always more than one way to do something. Some better than others. Often with any product there are good better and best versions. The man is teaching the ideal way, or best way of doing things. His ways aren't the only way, but why would you show someone how to do something in an inferior way? I feel like I learn something every time I watch one of his videos.

the man is teaching you the difference. You need to have your pencil and note pad out. I also think you should show some respect. He hasn't posted any smart ass comments your direction. Not in exactly my direction no. More of a blanket statement involving everyone who runs CCA, uses the term "box rise," or uses a class D amp and calls it "better." Here is the thing, I am all for knowing the science and math, but I am also wise enough to know that in practice the gains or losses are minute. I hate to sit here and watch people hear everything said by him and take it as gospel. And don't get it wrong, I respect Tony, but I won't have people thinking that there is only one way to do something and that if they aren't doing it that way they are wrong. what Tony says IS gospel. And i mean that. He forgot more today then you or i have learned in 10 years.

a 350 Watt difference constitutes "not ok"? really? in a system pulling 500 amps at that. simple math using your examples and a generic shitty efficiency rating yields this system makes around 4762.5 watts. But hey it could be making 5112.5 and all you have to do is pay twice as much! Think of how high you can turn your nose up to people running CCA Only the best for you Mr. Elitist Audio Man

Lookin good bro! Just ordered my gauges today. I can't wait to see if my idea works.

You mean like...actual application? I'm really hoping this science you are talking about actually shows an install and not just formulas on paper. That's my whole point, you call it broscience but I call it actual experience. Same with your fitness thread, but you know...no need for your shameless plug

How about you post pics, since you got them today

We will be getting to that too!

So I took the homework challenge. Got as much as I could out of the circuit as allowed by my knowledge and the data given. LED: 0.20 W 2.00 Vdrop 0.010 A 2.00 Ω Resistor: 1.20 W 10 Vdrop 0.010 A 1.00 KΩ

Good video sir! Everything was easy to understand. My favorite video from your youtube channel was probably: The phase angels and power factors were interesting.

http://caraudiomag.com/articles/copper-wire-vs-copper-clad-aluminum-wire-wire-warnings

This is better than the AMD vs Intel proc wars of the late 90's. my 3dnow is better than your floating point

Completely off Topic for the wire, but for engine.. say it made 400 and 500 hp bone stock. The 400 hp motor, dyno tune, headers, cam, exhaust, cold air intake, gears, certain fluids.. could make the 400 hp motor more powerful for less or same price then the 500 hp motor so will the 500hp engine.. what would help more for his post would be the quality of internal.. lets forget about power adders and say the 500hp has forged internals and the 400hp has stock cast steel internals. the forged crank, forged pistons, forged rods and arp bolts on the 500hp can take 900hp at 6900 rpm and the 400hp engine with cast crank and cheap pistons rods and bolts can only handle 600hp at 5500 rpm. now add your power adders plus a 150 shot of nitrous which engine will benefit the most and which will last longer??

You guys crack me up. Now, think about this for a second. You can't cheat the laws of physics - I mean, they are laws and not just some really good ideas. Value isn't accepted in physics, and for good reason. If you take the square root of 16, you'll always get four. There is no less expensive version of 16, just 16. Debate is healthy.

His statement was that it is cheaper, not better. That's why its used commonly for high power amplifiers because it allows manufacturers to put out a more affordable/practical product resulting in a smaller footprint, and higher profit margins for the company. If you take cost completely out of it, wouldn't you rather run your subs off of an SQ amp if you could get the same power as you get from a class D? I would. No compression of the notes when the beat is pounding continuously? Yes please. Class D is only "better" because it makes that power more affordable to more people. Take a look at the fosgate T15k. It is one bad ass, if not THE baddest amp ever made. It is a very efficient amp, it draws about 1/5 of the current per watt of RMS power than other really good amps, and it isn't a class D amp. It's a hybrid class A/B. It can put out around 17kw drawing only about 350A from the power source. That amp certainly wasn't cheap. You could easily get 17k rms cheaper, So in support of the initial claim, an amp doesn't perform better because it's class D, but it is made more affordable that way. You are sacrificing sound quality for affordability. "Better" can be interpreted in many ways. If you are a marketing director for a company and you sell class D amps, then hell yes it is better because it costs less to make and you make more money that way. The customer "benefits" by being able to afford power that they may not be able to afford if were a class A/B instead of a D. If that was true, all 4 channel amps would be class D also.

Wow, if there is this much arguing over a chunk of wire I can only imagine where this is going to go when Tony gets to the real topics like subs, amps, impedance, "box rise", class D. This is going to be a wild ride.......

No worries. I dont think anyone called out anyones intelligence. But,... the arguing, is WAY off putting. Fact is, most are here to see what he has to say. Not what any of you think, know, or have to say. And, i have much respect for a good deal posting on this thread. Fact is, they have done if for a good long time, and have been nutty successful at it. SO....... can we leave it at that? EDIT this was to you SRP, of which i respect, and then HT beat me, again, another one, of which i have respect.

Two thumbs up now get off your soapbox before you hurt your other foot Brad....I mean Scott.

I am intersted to find out all these answers! I'm completely a why guy! You say why this is the way it is, can you explain to me why you think it is or prove to me why fact says it is. How can I do this? Explination is this.............. Ok why is it that way, what makes it work like that, how is that fact and the way it actually is? I don't just want an answer, I want an answer and an answer to the answer. So I agree with what Finkster is saying. HOWEVER, nobody has even said that until he posted that a few posts back. But it's irritating as fuck that some of you guys around here like to just argue for the sake of arguing! Some of you guys just want to argue cause no-one wants to or has the balls to admit when they're wrong or what they believed in was not fact as they thought or believed it was. I think for some of you, Jesus Christ could come appearing out of the sky right in front of your face and you'd still find a way to argue it's not him! (not turning this into a religious thing, just a perfect example of an argument of fact, did or didn't exist, which has gone on for thousands of years) OFC>CCA for some, CCA>OFC for others. Why don't you agree to disagree until Tony proves his point? Then at that point, if he doesn't explain fully why and his results of "real world" testing, then argue the point of one side or the other. Otherwise you're all wrong, and that's fact!!

Yes I will argue, not for the fact of right or wrong but simply to keep those in power accountable. Tony D has quite a bit of influence on this site and I would hate to see new people spouting off the gospel of OFC wire and a/b amps or your car is a piece of shit because naturally that is how it will go.If you want to blindly follow, then be my guest. I for one will continue to challenge

OFC > CCA. When you see why you'll slap yourself. Edit: you guys are really gonna argue with an engineer that just reinvented an amplifier topology to build the T15K? Maybe you should humble yourselves because you sound as bad as the noobs on this site who know everything already.

Hmm Amp Dyno and DC 5k= CCA vs OFC. This one will be fun. Keep an eye out for a video in the next day or 2, I have a spool of 1/0 CCA coming from Sky High.

Do tell Im doing over a 56 and all the runs from my front batt to back batts are cca..... Maybe you should change it and run a 57?

I've heard there's a difference between science on paper and actual application

the whole cca/ofc debate will go on forever. The OFC guys will say all the terminals and fuses and holders negate the price the CCA guys could argue, just use toolmaker terminals and buss bars and that would negate that argument. Per amp, cca is cheaper at least knu brand is. So the more runs you do the more you would save. OFC saves lets you run less runs. In the end, all that really matters is you make sure you cover your amperage needs, and of course as we have seen from the OP, it is usually much less than what we think.

Do tell Im doing over a 56 and all the runs from my front batt to back batts are cca..... You may very well be. But could you do the same on fewer runs of OFC? And what would the cost difference between the two be (including fuses/holders/terminals)?

go on..

curious about this one. Annnnnd that's where I exit out of this thread to never look back.

I dont want to play with you. You make my face hurt. Nerd

Just like the topic says, GROWN FOLKS BUZINESS! If you wanna post cool stuff of ANY subject, ;) after 300 posts you can ask for permission and maybe youll get in! Only those who plan on contributing once in a while will be considered. ;D PM myself or Dave "the Admin" for a "key" EDIT: the post count has been raised to 300 due to "issues". If your lucky enough to have gotten in your still in but everyone from now one needs more now. thanks.